Open Locks & Disable Device - What if...

[Ran]

Open Locks & Disable Device - What if...
Well, we all have seen the changes on skills that were done on 3.5, the change of innuendo and read lips to be included inside other skills made me think of this:

Open Locks could be made a use of disable device, as such it would eliminate a very specific skill and make a more broad even more useful, but doing so would make the rogue even more awesome, since it retained its 8 skill points and has three less skills to worry about (innuendo, read lips and in this case, open locks).

As a balance rougues could be changed for 6 skill points/level, it wouldn't hurt much since the old rogue abilities would be grouped in 6 skills, while in "old" 3e it was done in 9, what results in one skill for each ability, one more than the 3e availability.

What do you all think about it? Would open locks becoming disabel device use be a good idea? if yes, reducing rogues skill points be a companion to this house rule?

I have inserted a pool to know the general opinion, in case you don't want to reply, at least vote, the ideas are welcome, though.

Edit: I have voted in order to see the results, it will not count, though, i voted for: It is not a bad idea and the reduction of skills would be a good balance.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

They seem functionally the same skill (you're disabling the lock) and I've never, ever taken either skill on any of my Rogue characters, so I can see this a good extension of rolling useless or too-limited skills together.

edit: I voted to keep 8 skills, because there are too many necessary skills, even with Open Lock and Disable Device combined.

 

[Ran]

Ys, that is the point, disabling the lock, that makes every pint used in disable device more worth, and open locks is as limited as innuendo and read lips was, just that comes to game more often.

I've been seeing to the number of skill points problem and came to this analisis, from second edition, to third and now 3.5, what makes for a very good dedcision on wether to keep the number or not:

-Pick Pocket, Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Detect Noise, Climb Walls, Read Languages. They also had Thieve's Cant and Backstab.
(They were 8, and this shows me to open the book when you think something)

In third edition they became:
-Pick Pockets, Open Locks, Search, Disable Device, Move Silently, Hide, Listen, Climb, Decipher Script, plus Innuendo. All other skills were options of nonweapon, what leaves us with 10 skills for being close to what thieves were back in 2nd edition.

Now, in 3.5, it makes this:
- Sleigh of Hand, Open Locks, Search, Disable Device, Move Silently, Hide, Listen, Climb, Decipher Script, plus Bluff is a must, leaving it all at 10 again!

Well, now what? I falling more to the keep it side... no true balance problems, just that we (and by we here I mean I) tend to forget climb, listen & search...

 

[Staffan]

But remember that the 2e thief only got 30 percentiles per level - the equivalent of 6 skill points, without the possibility of getting more for high Intelligence. I don't think the rogue is supposed to be able to max out every thiefly skill. You need to make some choices regarding what to be good at, or otherwise spread yourself a bit thinner than you'd like.

 

[Ran]

But remember that the 2e thief only got 30 percentiles per level - the equivalent of 6 skill points, without the possibility of getting more for high Intelligence. I don't think the rogue is supposed to be able to max out every thiefly skill. You need to make some choices regarding what to be good at, or otherwise spread yourself a bit thinner than you'd like.

Well, as I see it is hard to make an equivalence, but I got your point.

Considering that Thief Abilities & Nonweapons were different sets we had all those plus something else, now we have 8 skills points for 10 skills AND everything else...

Anyway, no rogue spends their skill points on the old set of abilities, and I know it is just better not to trinkle with that, but I think that i am starting to like the rogue's number of skill points after all (and I was the first on my group that said it was too much...)

Just some considerations....

 

[DreamChaser]

I see them as pretty different things.

Open locks is a fine manipulation of a locking mechanism. It is based upon manual dexterity and some knowledge of how locks work. Anyone could walk up and attempt to destroy (break the workings) or disable (jam) the lock but only a person specially trained can open a lock reliably without damaging it.

Disable device is more of a intellect based skill. It mostly involves reasoning through a complex device, whether large or small. It's main purpose, figure out how to screw up the device without it screwing us up. At higher skills, it becomes a matter of messing in other ways with the device but mostly it is about breaking them without bad concequences.

Two skills seems fine for me.

DC

 

[Nifft]

I like the idea -- IMHO the "Core Thief Skills" should take up no more than 2/3 of a Rogue's 8 skill points, especially if you want to allow your players to do "concept Rogues" in published adventures.

-- Nifft

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Open locks is a fine manipulation of a locking mechanism. It is based upon manual dexterity and some knowledge of how locks work. Anyone could walk up and attempt to destroy (break the workings) or disable (jam) the lock but only a person specially trained can open a lock reliably without damaging it.

Disable device is more of a intellect based skill. It mostly involves reasoning through a complex device, whether large or small. It's main purpose, figure out how to screw up the device without it screwing us up. At higher skills, it becomes a matter of messing in other ways with the device but mostly it is about breaking them without bad concequences.

Open Lock is also an Intelligence-based skill, isn't it?

 

[Ran]

I see them as pretty different things.

Open locks is a fine manipulation of a locking mechanism. It is based upon manual dexterity and some knowledge of how locks work. Anyone could walk up and attempt to destroy (break the workings) or disable (jam) the lock but only a person specially trained can open a lock reliably without damaging it.

Disable device is more of a intellect based skill. It mostly involves reasoning through a complex device, whether large or small. It's main purpose, figure out how to screw up the device without it screwing us up. At higher skills, it becomes a matter of messing in other ways with the device but mostly it is about breaking them without bad concequences.

Two skills seems fine for me.

DC

Well, while open locks rests on knowledge of mecanism it can be int based too, after all no one asks for a list of locks a rogue knows in advance, you know every one, and none, all the same.

Anyway, disable device or any skill can be changed to another modifier if it is the case, either the sage said so or it is smowhere on the books or faqs, it was thought for intimidate (using str).

The biggest problem would be with the idea that disabel device is destined to make harm and destroy mecanisms or parts of a "machine" (a wagon cart, for ex), but a lock is a mecanism and can be bypassed, just like you reset and bypass traps...

And traps also demand a lot of dexteroty to be disabled/bypassed/reset, after all, it usually is much more than knowing how it work, and can even be so small as a lock...


And for the others: No, Open Locks is a Dex based skill, and I agree that the rogue should have free skills, in fact, everyone shoul, I believe that the whole 3e and 3.5 abuses on it, after all cross class is already a VERY efficient way of keeping characters limited AND spend much more skill points than they would otherwise... but that is another whole thread...

 

[candidus_cogitens]

For me, the deciding criterion is balance among the various skills. Spot should be equivalent (as nearly as possible) in power to Bluff, and to Tumble, etc. That way, a player may design a rogue character according to his vision of the character and not fear ending up weaker than he might have been because he chose skills that were less powerful than other skills.

So, are Disable Device and Open Locks (as presently existing in the rules) roughly equivalent to other skills in power and importance, or should they be made into a single more powerful skill? If you ask me, they are each already powerful and important enough. The very fact that most rogues take max ranks in these two skills without a second thought indicates that they do not need to be made more powerful.