Pathfinder 1E Opinions on Pathfinder

[Scribble]

What's so special about 4e dragons? I'm not very familiar, so I'm honestly curious. I've heard some stuff here and there that they've removed the color-coded alignment (although they did that with Eberron already first, so I don't know that I'd call that a 4e innovation) which certainly makes dragons a lot easier to use. I wish Pathfinder had gone that route too.

I mean, in my home games I'd been doing that already (well before Eberron) but that also meant that a lot of the published fluff wasn't very useable to me.

I can't speak for Mistwell, and this might be a topic for another thread, but I'll say what makes ME like 4e Dragons (and just about all 4e big baddies, and well monsters for the most part as well.)

Remember this is all in my opinion. I also don't know much about the pathfinder Dragons, so I can't really say how much is true in PF terms...

First up the stat blocks, while large (by 4e standards) aren't ungodly and unwieldy.

The information I need for the primary purpose of the stat block is right there, in what I find to be an easy to read logical intuitive format.

ALL of the info is right there. I don't have to go to any other sources. (Which is true of all 4e monsters.)

Also if I need a new Dragon for an adventure, I go to the MM (or more likely the compendium) and pull up a dragon stat block. Blam... It's no longer a lengthy ordeal of combining breath-weapon tables and age tables, and stat blocks... It's all just there. This lets me focus on other tasks instead of using my prep time just building the basic starting point.

Swapping out powers isn't hard, so if I want to make it more acidy, or more undeady or whatever I can swap some powers, or even just tack some on, and combined with good flavor- new feeling dragon.

Combine this with how the powers work, breath weapons are easier for me to use, they tend to last in a fight longer, the powers they have are generally all useful, so I don't have to find the most useful ones, and the way some powers are "reactive" make the fights more interesting for me.


In short, 4e dragons quickly give me info I NEED when in a fight, and are easy to quickly reconjigger if I need to.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks Scribble - that was helpful. Having finished a 3.5 campaign a few weeks ago, I'm still undecided about switching to either Pathfinder or 4E. I'm not sticking with 3.5, and if we run Pathfinder, I would stick with just PF material and not use the old 3.5 books (too much confusion with little tweaks in the rules here & there...)

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Feeling cheated because a 3e monster is custom and not stock seems really wierd to me.

Feelings aren't always based in logic, unfortunately.

Still, a player who feels unsatisfied, whether for logical reasons or not, is still actually unsatisfied.

 

[Windjammer]

Thanks Scribble - that was helpful. Having finished a 3.5 campaign a few weeks ago, I'm still undecided about switching to either Pathfinder or 4E. I'm not sticking with 3.5, and if we run Pathfinder, I would stick with just PF material and not use the old 3.5 books (too much confusion with little tweaks in the rules here & there...)

Scribble's post is very useful when comparing 4E to 3.5. And even though I prefer 3.5 over Pathfinder, it must be said that Pathfinder's Bestiary contains dragon stat blocks usable "out of the book":

+++++++++++

Adult Blue Dragon CR 13
XP 25,600
LE Huge dragon (earth)
Init +4; Senses dragon senses; Perception +22
Aura electricity (5 ft., 1d6 elect.), frightful presence (180 ft., DC 21)
Defense
AC 28, touch 8, flat-footed 28 (+20 natural, –2 size)
hp 184 (16d12+80)
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +13
DR 5/magic; Immune electricity, paralysis, sleep; SR 24
Offense
Speed 40 ft., burrow 20 ft., fly 200 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks breath weapon (100-ft. line, DC 23, 12d8 electricity), crush, desert thirst (DC 21)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 16th)
At will—ghost sound (DC 13), minor image (DC 14), ventriloquism (DC 14)
Spells Known (CL 5th)
2nd (5/day)—invisibility, resist energy
1st (7/day)—alarm, mage armor, shield, true strike
0 (at will)—arcane mark, detect magic, mage hand, mending, read magic, resistance
Statistics
Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 16
Base Atk +16; CMB +26; CMD 36 (40 vs. trip)
Feats Combat Casting, Dazzling Display, Deadly Stroke, Hover, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Appraise +22, Fly +11, Intimidate +22, Knowledge (local) +22, Knowledge (geography) +22, Perception +22, Spellcraft +22, Stealth +11, Survival +22
Languages Auran, Common, Draconic, Giant
SQ sound imitation

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Basically, the PF Bestiary gives you complete stat blocks for all age groups of dragons (that's a lot), and then references the SQ once:

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Special Abilities
Desert Thirst (Su) A blue dragon can cast create water at will (CL equals its HD). Alternatively, it can destroy an equal amount of liquid in a 10-foot burst. Unattended liquids are instantly reduced to sand. Liquid-based magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature's possession must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to the dragon's breath weapon) or be destroyed.
Electricity Aura (Su) An adult blue dragon is surrounded by an aura of electricity. Creatures within 5 feet take 1d6 points of electricity damage at the beginning of the dragon's turn. An old dragon's aura extends to 10 feet. An ancient dragon's damage increases to 2d6.
Mirage (Su) An old or older blue dragon can make itself appear to be in two places at once as a free action for a number of rounds per day equal to its Hit Dice. This ability functions as project image but the dragon can use its breath weapon through the mirage.
Sandstorm (Su) As a standard action, a great wyrm blue dragon can create a sandstorm centered on itself with a radius of 1,200 feet. Creatures other than the dragon inside the storm take 2d6 points of damage per round in addition to the normal sandstorm penalties (Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 431). This sandstorm lasts for up to 1 hour, but can be dismissed by the dragon as a free action.
Sound Imitation (Ex) A very young or older blue dragon can mimic any voice or sound it has heard by making a successful Bluff check against a listener's Sense Motive check.
Spell-Like Abilities (Sp) A blue dragon gains the following spell-like abilities, usable at will upon reaching the listed age category. Young—ghost sound; Juvenile—minor image; Adult—ventriloquism; Old—hallucinatory terrain; Ancient—veil; Great wyrm—mirage arcana.
Storm Breath (Su) An ancient or older blue dragon can use its breath weapon to create a storm of lightning. This functions as call lightning storm, but the damage is equal to the dragon's breath weapon. The dragon can call down 1 bolt per round as a free action for 1d6 rounds. The save DC is equal to the dragon's breath weapon DC. Additional uses of this ability extend the duration by an additional 1d6 rounds.
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PS. Both things posted from here.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I
First up the stat blocks, while large (by 4e standards) aren't ungodly and unwieldy.

The information I need for the primary purpose of the stat block is right there, in what I find to be an easy to read logical intuitive format.

ALL of the info is right there. I don't have to go to any other sources. (Which is true of all 4e monsters.)

I think that the 4E Monster Manual is my favorite of the 4E books because of how they customized and laid out the monster stat blocks. When I ran my few 4E games at the beginning all I had to do was print out the statblocks from my PDF and hold them together with a paper clip.

Even though I wound up not sticking with 4E I really like the MM and it's the only one of the 4E books that I still look through.

I'm that odd DM / GM I guess that doesnt mind customizing monsters from the 3.5 / Pathfinder baseline though. Between Goodman games' Book Of Templates, Green Ronin's awesome Advanced bestiary and Bad Axe Game's TrailBlazer rules for making Solo and Elite monsters I'm pretty much set for making some really effed up variations of Otyughs whatever.

Also as something I was doing before 4E (but 4E helped to reinforce what I was doing in different ways) was re-writing the statblock in a condensed form. Basically only writing (or in my case cutting and pasting) down what I needed for that encounter. Making sure that all of the creatures Special abilities are written in one place and how they work. Usually I can fit most things like an average humanoid on an index card, sometimes with other things like a dragon or a major demon I can fit everything on one side of a sheet of paper.

But yeah, I think that the 4E MM is pretty good, and this is coming from someone who is not a big fan of 4E as a whole.

 

[Dannager]

Scribble's post is very useful when comparing 4E to 3.5. And even though I prefer 3.5 over Pathfinder, it must be said that Pathfinder's Bestiary contains dragon stat blocks usable "out of the book":

Of course, in order to run that dragon and make use of all its abilities, I'd need to reference nearly a dozen combat spells and half a dozen feats. It also takes up twice as much space as the 4e stat block does. The two really don't have comparable utility in terms of using them straight from the book.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Of course, in order to run that dragon and make use of all its abilities, I'd need to reference nearly a dozen combat spells and half a dozen feats. It also takes up twice as much space as the 4e stat block does. The two really don't have comparable utility in terms of using them straight from the book.

Yeah, usually I dont agree with ANYTHING that Dannager says, but in this case he speaks TRUTH. For me to use a dragon in my game I'd be cutting and pasting from the PDF to make sure that all of it's abilities were on the same page and trying to organize it so that I know where to reference things.

Now I dont MIND doing this at all, but I can see how someone might not want to. It's one of the reasons that I'm a big proponent of PDF's and electronic files for game prep. If an adventure or aide isnt in PDF for me these days it's useless...

 

[Minicol]

To me Pathfinder ROCKS, and all other games are hidden under the dust of my shelves.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I'm that odd DM / GM I guess that doesnt mind customizing monsters from the 3.5 / Pathfinder baseline though.

I don't think you're odd. 3.5 would probably be my system of choice if I had the time to devote to my favorite hobby that I used to have. I feel fortunate enough to be a late-30's gamer with all of the responsibilities I have that still gets to game once a week.

 

[Mark Chance]

The two really don't have comparable utility in terms of using them straight from the book.

For you.

I could use it right out of the book without much fuss at all.