Pathfinder 1E Opinions on Pathfinder

on Buffs and Pathfinder

Dispel magic works a little differently in Pathfinder. It only dispels ONE effect per use (starting with the highest DC), not every possible spell effect you might be under.

Still requires a little math on the fly to re-calculate, and you do have to roll vs. every effect until one is removed or you fail against all of them, but it is a bit easier than it was in 3.5.

As for different humanoids, I don't mind them having special abilities tied to their race, but even if they don't have mechanics that differentiate them by default I still like having different types of humanoids. It's sometimes about story and flavor, not just stats and mechanics.

Otherwise why have multiple PC races? Why not just make them all Human?
 

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Am I really the only one who is dissatisfied with both 4e's AND PF's approach to dragons?

Both approaches are actually great illustrations of some of my key problems with each game system.

Like Kamikaze Midget, I think 4e went much too far in stripping away all of the non-combat options for dragons. I mean, the game is named Dungeons and Dragons -- if there is one monster that should be more complicated than any other, make it a dragon. I appreciate wanting to simplify the stat block, but I'm not so excited about the result: easy to run, smart dinos with breath weapons. (Yawn.)

On the other hand, the Pathfinder approach was to keep all of the 3e complexity and then add even more, but with cooler flavor. While I appreciate the desire to give dragons more thematically consistent abilities, in the same breath I would say the last thing in the world dragons needed were more fiddly abilities with little combat use. While I can't deny the flavor coolness of many of the new abilities, mechanically they were a wasted opportunity.

(What dragons really needed, particularly at the higher levels, were abilities that would let them function better as solo monsters and stave off Lanchester's Square Law: abilities that would give them more actions per round, more movement, reactive actions, and the chance to recover from crippling attacks.)

So I find myself in the unhappy position of choosing between easy and boring or complicated and flavorful.

I'm not sure either choice is very compelling.
 
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I completely reject your rejection as silly ;)
Seriously, this is _exactly_ the kind of effect 3rd edition had, maybe not in your game group, but definitely in mine.

Never mind all the thread started and discussed on this very topic over the entire life of 3E. But, BryonD the Monty Python Major has declared us silly! It must be so.

I definitely remember a time when after every new 3e book release threads would be full of people pointing out the many, often minor, mistakes in stat blocks. Times seem to have changed :)

Well everthing's perfect now. Evil WotC isn't running 3.5 anymore, that would be the angels over at Paizo now. ;)

In 4E I'm supposed to explain this with "They just do because it's their special ability".

Bunk. This is your negative view of the edition skewing your explanation. Even a noob DM reading the entire gnoll entry would put 2 & 2 together when reading the special ability and the Lore section on gnolls and describe the pack tactic in a more flavorful way like:

Kamikaze Midget said:
Gnolls standing next to each other work in concert much more efficiently than even well-trained creatures of other species, having a keen awareness of exactly how to move to take advantage of their ally's position.

Your statement would be the equivalent of: "In 3E I'm supposed to explain this with 'They do it because the book says so'."
 



Encountering a blue dragon (which means more than just getting into a fight with it) who can alter the weather and who is a master of deception is so much more awesome than encountering 4e's blue dragon, with it's horrible ability to, what, sometimes put its horn in you? And to chain some lightning together? Whoop-i-deeleley-do. That is not a monster that lives in the world, that is an excuse to get into a fight for some sweet, sweet XP, that is something that you just need to kill and get it over with. It might be fun to kill, but that's all it is: something to kill. Which is fine for certain styles, but it is not what I want out of my monsters.

Just for fun, I'm going to retrofit 4e's Adult Blue dragon with some of the flavorful 3e/PF abilities; I'll post it here when I'm done. :angel:

I think that's the main difference people miss, or just doesn't work for them with a 4e stat block.

The 4e stat block is cutting out everything that won't work in the situation that calls for a stat block 99% of the time- A fight.

It's fine to have a load of abilities that inspire the DM attached to a monster, but if the stat block is going to most commonly be referred to while the creature is in a fight then those "extra" abilities will only serve to hamper the DM durring the game.

Those extra abilities should be kept separate in a different stat block if you will. (If you read the most recent skill challenge article, Mike Mearls does exactly this with a role playing stat block.)

And this is the area I think most DMs are interested in DMing for- the creative part. (At least thats why I am!) If I want a Blue Dragon that can control the weather, and is a master of deception, I'll give him some weather related rituals, maybe some stealth relaed rituals, and magic items, a good backstory, and some traits to roleplay him related to his deceptive nature. But I DON'T need them cluttering up the stat block that will be used if and when it gets into a fight- I'll keep them in a seperate area.

4e works really well for me for this reason. It gives me the numbers, and does a lot of the boring work I don't want to deal with, then gets out of the way as quickly as it can. I can spend my time working on the fun parts.

But again, I think this is the wrong thread for this discussion, as this is a discussion about Pathfinder, why are people talking about 4e?

4E doesn't fail miserably. But why settle for C- when I have a solid A already?

Shrug- if 4e doesn't work for you then play whatever game you want? I'm not interested in a edition war pissing contest. A question was asked so I answered why the element of the game works well for me, I don't really care whether or not you agree with my opinions! :D Have fun doing whatever it is you have fun doing.
 

How exactly is buff math any different from tracking round to round modifiers that refresh when a person hits?

You cast the buffs and they're up for the duration the majority of the time. What buffs are you talking about? Bull's Str is +4 enh to str. That's +2 hit and damage on average. How hard is that? And tracking off a hash mark every round isn't that hard.

I never really understood the dislike of long-term buffing magic. I could do all the adjustments in my head on the fly. I knew every feat in the book. I always figured any DM had the rules memorised and only had to pull out the books for odd situations that might require a bit of research. Buffing magic was never a problem in any campaign I've been in.

Actually, it was very rare in my campaign for "buff" spells to be up for the duration of the combat. At higher levels, it was a matter of both sides casting Greater Dispel Magic, Chain Dispel or similar until both sides were completely, or nearly completely, debuffed.

We have a guy in our group that does a lot of RPG playtesting and editing of RPG rulebooks and he still had trouble with a lot of the rules. And, I work in accounting & finance for a living and still had trouble with the math. It's not that it's complicated overall, it's just remembering what applies when and where. It's not just a +4 from Bull's Strength, which adds +2 to hit (if you're not using Weapon Finesse, which two PCs in my party did) and +2 to damage, but it's also +3 to damage if you use the weapon two-handed... and then you get another +3 to damage if the cleric had cast Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, but only a flat +3 and not +4 for two-handed weapons. And, if the dwarf using his waraxe decides to switch from 2 handed to one-handed, it's another calculation there. And then, if you're subjected to Blasphemy by an evil cleric 1-5 levels higher than you, you suffer 2d6 Strength loss, which is NOT a drain or damage, and therefore not preventable by Sheltered Vitality, which prevents ability damage and drain, but not untyped ability loss, which is seemingly the case with Blasphemy. However, Sheltered Vitality would protect you against the strength damage from Unholy Aura. But, you then have to calculate a -3 or -4 to hit, and a -3 to -6 to damage... but, then you also have to recalculate encumbrance for the lower strength to see if the PC is now heavily encumbered, overly encumbered or just "suffering" from medium encumbrance and still not overly hindered. However, if he is too heavy, he may not be able to move at all.

But, then if you're in an anti-magic zone, the belt of giant strength is no longer functioning, but then you gain back the Strength loss from Blasphemy (I think), so it may partly cancel out, but maybe not.

And, just because you can do all the adjustments on the fly doesn't mean that every one of my 8 players could do it on the fly, especially when casting/having 7-8-9 buffing spells up in a combat was not uncommon for both sides at higher levels. I wish I had the time to memorize all the rules, but work & family take up a lot of my time, and when even the rules guys in our group are pouring through their rulebooks on certain situations and spells in combat, it's not a great situation.
 
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Dispel magic works a little differently in Pathfinder. It only dispels ONE effect per use (starting with the highest DC), not every possible spell effect you might be under.

Still requires a little math on the fly to re-calculate, and you do have to roll vs. every effect until one is removed or you fail against all of them, but it is a bit easier than it was in 3.5.

As for different humanoids, I don't mind them having special abilities tied to their race, but even if they don't have mechanics that differentiate them by default I still like having different types of humanoids. It's sometimes about story and flavor, not just stats and mechanics.

Otherwise why have multiple PC races? Why not just make them all Human?

Greater Dispel in PF, however, dispels one effect per four caster levels.
 
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Whereas giving gnolls +5 damage when attacking in a pack simulates nothing. That is what 4E did alot of. Cool Crunch over Logical Crunch. I prefer logical crunch that at least attempts to make sense.

4E is not trying to simulate anything. Hit Points aren't even necessarily a wound of any type. There are many flavorful ways within this context to describe the +5 damage that are both cool and logical. A foe harried by a pack of demonic yipping hyena-men could lose resolve and focus easier (-5 hp). Many of these arguments come about because people are unwilling to try to put flavor into the results of the rules. I'm not asking you to do so because you are obviously not interested in 4E, that's fine, but the ability to have a 4E game that make internal sense is there if you want it to be.
 

Last night after readin a few of these posts I actually sat down with my PF Bestiary and Core Rulebook and hand copied (from the book) an adult blue dragon. It took me about 15 min to copy what I'd need for a combat including special abilities, spell ranges, saves and damage.

Now, considering that normally I cut and paste a stat block from a PDF into a word document and start whittling it down from there, I didn't find it that big of a deal to re-edit a stat block for use at my table so that all of the information that I need is there for easy access.

NOTE: I know that there are those of you who see my process as too much already so anything that I say here isnt going to address any of your concerns.

I pretty much never run anything out of the book as is, even from modules. I'm always either tweaking to challenge my players or to make things easier for me when I have to run the game or both. I've stated before that I do like the ease of 4E statblocks,, but that by no means suggests that I dont like PF stat blocks. Quite the opposite, for my games I like having more than what I need so that I can edit down or customize. So there's pretty much no hate for either format for me.
 
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