Opinions wanted: is 'Master at Arms' an expertise feat?

[Prestidigitalis]

The thing is that the level 30 cleric will have nothing like a 25% chance to hit even without expertise. The actual difference is more along the lines of missing on a 2 vs missing on a 5.

Could you give an example that gives this result? My own calculations indicate that the Cleric will need a lot of circumstancial bonuses to get to only missing on a 5.

Level 30 +15
Wisdom 28 + 9
Enhancement + 6
Total bonus + 30

I checked all of the level 31 creatures in the online Compendium. They had Reflex and Will defenses (the two most often attacked by laser clerics) of:

Reflex 43, 43, 48, 46, 40, 44, 37, 41 = 342 / 8 = 42.75 average

Will 45, 43, 47, 46, 44, 42, 40, 47 = 354 / 8 = 44.25 average

Lower 43, 43, 47, 46, 40, 42, 37, 41 = 339 / 8 = 42.625 average

Without assistance, this Cleric will need a 12 or higher to hit Reflex, and a 14 or higher to hit Will. If they merely attack the lower of the two at all times, ignoring other considerations such as the riders or effects of the powers, they still need a 12 to hit.

A laser cleric will sometimes get CA from flanking or some other source, but it won't be dependable. Where exactly is the bonus coming from if not from expertise?

As usual, AC runs a couple of points higher for those creatures, so unless the Cleric uses a +3 proficiency weapon, attacking AC with a Strength-based power won't make the numbers much better.

The Warlord power Lead the Attack doesn't give a bonus for the entire encounter any more, and I'm not aware of anything else that has come along to replace it. Are you assuming that the leader will be able to grant significant bonuses almost every round via Encounter powers? And what about a party which has no Warlord or other bonus provider?

I'm not trying to be argumentative -- I just keep hearing this claim and I've never really seen the numbers to back it up. If they exist, I'd like to see them.

 

[KarinsDad]

The thing is that the level 30 cleric will have nothing like a 25% chance to hit even without expertise. The actual difference is more along the lines of missing on a 2 vs missing on a 5.

Against level 34 foes as per my example? Only missing on a 5???

Do you really want to go against level 30 foes at level 30, or do you want to go against level 34 through 36 level foes?

It's the end of the PC's career. Does he go out with a bang against awesome foes, or does he go out with a whimper against same level foes?

Ditto for levels 26 through 29.

 

[Aegeri]

I feel sorry for Orcus. Whenever you have these debates, it always comes down to the fact that Orcus suffers from being the first 30+ epic level solo. Unfortunately being both a MM1 solo and a brute, he's also one of the most utterly useless monsters in 4th edition.

Guys, just LEAVE ORCUS ALONE okay? He's had enough abuse. Pick a decent example like Tiamat, Ogremoch or something.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Guys, just LEAVE ORCUS ALONE okay? He's had enough abuse.

Orcus? What's so special about him? Isn't he just a big overgrown orc?