D&D 5E Optimal Multiclassing

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

True... To your point above, the decision on what traits stack with multitasking, I believe, are a balance issue. Not to make sure that characters are balanced within a group, or even between groups, but to what level of balance do you want to encourage single classing over multiclassing. What's in the PHB is what the designers felt was a good baseline, so yeah... that would be reflected
in their organized play program.

Honestly, I don't disagree with them. My first take on the multiclassing rules were probably similar to yours... it didn't make much sense why, if all classes get ASI, not just decouple them from the class levels. Or if a number of classes get a bonus attacks at level 5, let that stack across those classes. But seeing some of the talk on this and other boards about the tough choices that are made to stray of a single class concept, the more I think the designers hit it pretty close to the mark, as I'm still seeing plenty of good multiclass options, even on the martial side.

Right now, it appears that characters need to make sacrifices and difficult choices on how expand outside their wheelhouse, which I think is great. I'd much rather the tough choice over the obvious one.

I agree with you once again about tough choices. My issue aren't the tough choices, it's that the choices aren't fair an equitable across the board. The following are two examples I'll reprint here that I posted earlier in this post, so you don't have to shift through:

If all classes are relatively balanced, why is Ftr Str OR Dex, Mnk Dex AND Wis, Pal Str AND Cha, Rgr Dex AND Wis, and all other classes are just one Stat?
Ftr being 'either/or' implies it's easier to MC into.
Mnk, Pal, Rgr being 'and' implies it's harder to MC into those classes.

I just feel that having ability score boosts being tied to level and giving the Ftr and Rog bonus boosts would've came to the same conclusion without gimping the MC rules.

I.E., if Fighters get bonus stat boosts at levels 6 and 14 and Rogues at level 10, give everyone based on level boosts at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19, then give Fighters class bonus boosts at levels 6 and 14 and Rogues at level 10.
And don't tell me it's a, "balance issue", cuz' spellcasters don't get nerfed. Heck, there is even a whole chart on page 165 of the PHB, to make sure they don't get nerfed.
The figters and rogues still get ability score bonuses and the MC'ers don't get nerfed. Win - Win!

 

[eryndel]

Those are good points. It's interesting that it's three martial classes that have dual requirements. As for fighter, in the playtest there was some uproar about folks wanting to play multiclassed finesse fighters, so I think the OR comes from an attempt to accommodate both str and dex fighter builds. But I don't have a good answer for the other three.

 

[Theovis]

And don't tell me it's a, "balance issue", cuz' spellcasters don't get nerfed.

Well, they sort of do. As Jadrax posted...

Even the spell slot table is not as beneficial as you might think. Without it a Cleric 3 Wizard 3 would get 8 1st level spells and 4 2nd level. With it they get 4 1st level, 3 2nd, 3 3rd. That's actually a trade off rather than one being directly better than the other.

Some might argue that they are getting less than they would if the spellcasting were per-class. They have certainly lost some top-end power either way in the form of higher level spells which might be analogous to extra attacks...?

 

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

Those are good points. It's interesting that it's three martial classes that have dual requirements. As for fighter, in the playtest there was some uproar about folks wanting to play multiclassed finesse fighters, so I think the OR comes from an attempt to accommodate both str and dex fighter builds. But I don't have a good answer for the other three.

I'm ok with an , "or", just not an, "and", when it doesn't aplly equally across the board. I agree , interesting that it's all of the, "martial classes", that have stricter and in the case of, all butvthe fighter, stricter and unfair rules.

 

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

Well, they sort of do. As Jadrax posted...



Some might argue that they are getting less than they would if the spellcasting were per-class. They have certainly lost some top-end power either way in the form of higher level spells which might be analogous to extra attacks...?

Fair enough I'll agree with u that they don't get as much. But, multiple "martial class" attacks isn't the only issue, see the above post on MC stat prereqs.

 

[Mistwell]

Regardless of the rog/mnk roleplay issue being relevant to this post or not, the following is relevant:

If all classes are relatively balanced, why is Ftr Str OR Dex, Mnk Dex AND Wis, Pal Str AND Cha, Rgr Dex AND Wis, and all other classes are just one Stat?

Uh, what? All the spellcasting classes need something for AC too you know. Your lore bard without dex is going to die even faster than the wizard, who at least has mage armor. But really, the wizard and sorcerer also need high dex. I think Warlock does as well.

Also, Ranger does not need Wisdom. Their spells are mostly stat-neutral.

 

[Talaeden_Denthiir]

Uh, what? All the spellcasting classes need something for AC too you know. Your lore bard without dex is going to die even faster than the wizard, who at least has mage armor. But really, the wizard and sorcerer also need high dex. I think Warlock does as well.

Also, Ranger does not need Wisdom. Their spells are mostly stat-neutral.

Since what you quoted is from multiple posts from 2 separate messgae boards and condensed for
his benefit, let me clarify 'cuz it seems ur misunderstanding

It has nothing to do with that. I'm actually talking about multiclass prereqs. Monks need two stats at 13, wizards need one, etc.

 

[Runny]

What are your votes for best one level dip? I vote fighter. Best two level dip? That's easy: warlock.

 

[brehobit]

What are your votes for best one level dip? I vote fighter. Best two level dip? That's easy: warlock.

Warlock 2 is hard to argue with. Goes well with just about anything. Not sure I'd actually take it very often, but it's cool and gives reasonable mechanical advantages while giving the potential for lots of cool and weird powers.

Paladin 2 is actually pretty useful too. The ability to smite 2/day is really helpful--especially if you happen to get a crit at an important juncture. The healing, detecting, and fighting style are all quite useful too. I think this actually is straight up useful more often.

Barbarian 1 is also very good. If I'm not planning on heavy armor (rogue or monk?) I'd likely prefer this over fighter.

The worst is likely ranger 1. The bonuses are cool and potentially quite useful, but I have a hard time seeing when it would be a reasonable dip.

 

[brehobit]

The problem is that in your system, taking level 5 in a martial class is ALWAYS worse than multiclassing, since you've basically stripped away their big level 5 ability.

That is an interesting point. It generally puts one behind on bigger powers in one's class and stat gains later, but yes, that's probably right just looking at 5th level. Interesting. Not sure that changes my mind, but it's a heck of a good point.