Optimization and optimizers...

[Seramus]

There are people who interact with--get to the fiction of--games through the mechanics. I have been and am still sometimes one. This seems like a different thing from optimizing, which is itself a thing that isn't always a problem (as I said upthread). I mean, I don't think getting to the fiction through the mechanics is inherently a problem, either, though it'll probably lead to different preferences as far as games/systems, and there might be the various sorts of table-matching problems I gestured at regarding optimizing.

I'm personally all over the place. Sometimes I see a really neat mechanic I would love to play and say, "Self, what kind of person would this mechanic create? Who would live like this, and what drove them to achieve this?" and work backwards from there. Sometimes I get a concept and say, "Self, how do I express this concept through the game mechanics? I can't be the very best underwater basket weaver unless I'm actually mechanically good at weaving baskets underwater!"

And then sometimes I split the difference like, "I'm a worm that wants people to love him. I'm gonna be great at making people love me, but also just a worm with all the penalties that entails."

 

[Ruin Explorer]

"I'm a worm that wants people to love him. I'm gonna be great at making people love me, but also just a worm with all the penalties that entails."

Pretty sure that's an RCC in Rifts Atlantis!

 

[Desdichado]

What?

So there's no difference between someone who makes a completely rules-legal and non-broken character, and someone who is intentionally trying to break the game and make the entire game about them?

Seriously?

Like I said, it's a question of degree. I can work with the former, although I'd honestly prefer not to, because they're doing the same thing as the latter, just with admittedly more restraint.

This directly contradicts your previous point.

No it doesn't.

And also, more to the point, almost no-one who isn't "socially well-adjusted" is fun to play with, are they? Roleplayers who aren't "socially well-adjusted" can be hellish to play with. Optimization has nothing to do with that.

I guarantee you that I've played with many more "optimizers" who insist that their way of playing is the only correct way than I have with the somewhat apocryphal "that's what my character would do" horror stories. I'm not sure that we mean the same thing about socially well-adjusted. Don't try to use that to deflect from what I'm saying.

I think your real issue is "no-one wants to play with people who constantly talk smack about other people's characters" whether that's coming from an RP place, or optimization place, or somewhere else entirely, which yeah, I agree!

One red flag about socially well-adjusted is people who try to tell me what I think, especially if it's something out of left field that has no relation to anything that I said. Those kinds of people try to tell me that I'm playing the game wrong because my decisions aren't sufficiently optimized, so I'm ruining it for them or something. Lack of social well-adjustment.

I don't think anyone where is defending "certain bad behaviour" though, that's entire issue isn't it?

What I'm saying is that from my point of view, the behavior that you think is fine is actually bad. So yes, you are defending certain bad behavior. For certain interpretations of bad, of course.

On the precise contrary, people are annoyed that normal, common, non-bad behaviour (arguably beneficial behaviour, even) is being labelled as "bad". I'll always fight back against that when I see it, whether it's something like people engaging in homophobia (often via occluded/masked ways like "omg kids can't see drag queens!") or something pettier like people trying to make out building characters in a competent way and understanding mechanics wrong.

What in the world are you talking about now? What does any of that have to do with power-gaming?

 

[Desdichado]

Maybe the term optimizer is just like that George Carlin routine about how everyone who drives faster than you on the freeway is a maniac, and everyone who drives slower is a donkey cave. Everyone who puts more work into maximizing their characters than I do is a Try Hard Optimizer, and everyone who puts less effort in is a Filthy Casual.

Yeah, well, that's certainly at play here too, no doubt.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What I'm saying is that from my point of view, the behavior that you think is fine is actually bad. So yes, you are defending certain bad behavior. For certain interpretations of bad, of course.

LOL you're proving my point, and disproving his. Incredible.

What in the world are you talking about now? What does any of that have to do with power-gaming?

That you don't get it stems directly from you thinking (as illustrated above) that you are the one who gets to define "bad behaviour", and that you can define behaviour that isn't harming others as "bad". That's a you problem, not a me problem.

Those kinds of people try to tell me that I'm playing the game wrong because my decisions aren't sufficiently optimized, so I'm ruining it for them or something. Lack of social well-adjustment.

Yeah, and I agree that's messed up, because that actually is disruptive and harmful. I've seen it happen - hell people have done it to me, even when I've already got a pretty optimized PC! But I haven't seen it be common at all. That's not to say it isn't where you are, obviously.

I guarantee you that I've played with many more "optimizers" who insist that their way of playing is the only correct way than I have with the somewhat apocryphal "that's what my character would do" horror stories. I'm not sure that we mean the same thing about socially well-adjusted. Don't try to use that to deflect from what I'm saying.

I'm not deflecting anything - and I don't think we do mean something different re: "socially well-adjusted". I think it's a bit of a dodge to suggest we do.

As for "somewhat apocryphal", I mean, do you not see how that's a very funny thing for you to say? That's my point - experiences differ. You have stated that you think something that's common and many people have seen is "apocryphal" (lol), and there are various possible reasons for that - the most likely is, it's just something you haven't personally experience a problem with, because in whatever country or area of a country you live in, or with the age-group you played with, the bigger problem has been with annoying optimizers.

The difference is, I don't think all roleplayers are inherently bad people because some cause a problem, whereas you are saying all optimizers (which is, to be clear, the vast majority of people who play RPGs, if we use your "spectrum") are inherently bad people. Also, I can accept that you may have had more trouble with annoying optimizers, but you feel the need to claim (laughably) that we're making up stories about "Its what my character would do".

 

[Seramus]

What do you think happens in those situations? Do you think everyone just shrugs their shoulders, and keeps playing together, because ... hey, it's legal, and the rules of the game? Do you think people will just want to git gud? Or do you think the other people stop playing? Yeah, I think you know what happens.

Well, there's the real answer "They stop playing together" and then the adult answer, "They sit down and talk with this guy about it." And I wholeheartedly acknowledge that the real answer is what most people do, while absolutely suggesting that the adult answer is what more people should do. In everything really, where diplomatic consequences permit (hard to do that to your boss, for example).

Just like one of the most common responses on any forum for a problem player is "Have you talked to your GM about it? / See if your GM is willing to talk to them about it." It doesn't always work. Sometimes it blows up in your face! But it's worth trying more often than not.

it's the behavior. If you aren't being a jerk with what you're doing, no one cares. Heck, if you're playing with a bunch of people that are all into it and having fun with it, that's cool too! Play as you want. But don't tell me that there are people that prioritize their own fun over the social compact, and do it through a specific process (optimization/powergaming/whatever you feel is the best term). Good?

We're definitely good. I'm not trying to convince you specifically. But it's integral that there are some people always speaking up and reminding everyone in these threads that it's the bad actors and not people who love mechanics that are the problem. That those bad actors are a minority, and that it's very important to not sweepingly judge anyone who loves mechanics as a potential bad actor until they've proven themselves a bad actor. Because those sweeping judgements absolutely do happen.

 

[Desdichado]

LOL you're proving my point, and disproving his. Incredible.

Not really. Not at all, actually.

That you don't get it stems directly from you thinking (as illustrated above) that you are the one who gets to define "bad behaviour", and that you can define behaviour that isn't harming others as "bad". That's a you problem, not a me problem.

It's not any problem at all. You're just not getting it. I'm saying exactly that; that what you're calling bad behavior isn't universally seen as bad, and what you're calling perfectly fine behavior isn't universally considered perfectly fine. You're so close, but still not there, because you're only getting it when it goes one way.

Yeah, and I agree that's messed up, because that actually is disruptive and harmful. I've seen it happen - hell people have done it to me, even when I've already got a pretty optimized PC! But I haven't seen it be common at all. That's not to say it isn't where you are, obviously.

Yet you missed—maybe I was too subtle—that I wasn't referring to anything that happened to me at the table, I was referring to the comment you made to me that I was responding to.

The difference is, I don't think all roleplayers are inherently bad people because some cause a problem, whereas you are saying all optimizers (which is, to be clear, the vast majority of people who play RPGs, if we use your "spectrum") are inherently bad people. Also, I can accept that you may have had more trouble with annoying optimizers, but you feel the need to claim (laughably) that we're making up stories about "Its what my character would do".

No, I didn't say that at all. I said that I don't like optimization as a focus of the game, and it reduces the fun of the game for me, therefore it has negative utility, therefore it's bad. Not bad as in "you're a bad person", but bad as in "this game is now worse than it would be if you'd knock if off." Many optimizers, or power-gamers as they used to be called (funny that we have to keep looking for a new word. Feels defensive for some reason) are able to work just fine with people who don't care about optimization. But the ones who complain about, try to dictate, and resent behavior that doesn't cater to their playstyle, in my anecdotal experience, have all been optimizers/power-gamers. All of them. While I don't claim that my data set is completely complete, of course, the correlation is unmistakable.

To me that's one of the biggest red flags out there beyond creepy behavior that they're going to cause problems in the game, and people who profess power-gamer tendencies, if I have a choice, I'd prefer to politely pass on gaming with.

 

[MGibster]

And then sometimes I split the difference like, "I'm a worm that wants people to love him. I'm gonna be great at making people love me, but also just a worm with all the penalties that entails."

No doubt an RCC inspired by some poor guy whose girlfriend asked him, "Would you still love me if I was a worm?"

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Not really. Not at all, actually.

Yes actually lol.

You're just not getting it. I'm saying exactly that; that what you're calling bad behavior isn't universally seen as bad, and what you're calling perfectly fine behavior isn't universally considered perfectly fine. You're so close, but still not there, because you're only getting it when it goes one way.

Wow. Self-contradiction and direct hypocrisy. Impressive. It absolutely is a problem that you are so keen to label others as "bad", and your later "Oh I only mean negative utility" rings completely false because you surround it with implications of actual bad behaviour, both before and after saying that.

Yet you missed—maybe I was too subtle—that I wasn't referring to anything that happened to me at the table, I was referring to the comment you made to me that I was responding to.

So this isn't a real problem you've ever had? What are you even saying? That you made it up?

But the ones who complain about, try to dictate, and resent behavior that doesn't cater to their playstyle, in my anecdotal experience, have all been optimizers/power-gamers. All of them. While I don't claim that my data set is completely complete, of course, the correlation is unmistakable.

Again, proving my point. You seem to think your personal experience is sufficient to claim a trend across the entire gaming world, whereas you claim other people's experiences are lies! You literally did that! You can't deny it - that's what apocryphal means, mate. Other people understand that their experiences are only part of the picture.

(funny that we have to keep looking for a new word. Feels defensive for some reason)

Jesus wept. The people who changed the name aren't the people doing the optimizing or power-gaming, it's the people complaining about it! That's not even arguable - that's why this thread started - because someone complaining about power-gaming decided to rename it to optimizing. You're shooting your own argument directly in the head!

 

[overgeeked]

donkey cave

Yoink.