Shadowheart...Daggerdark [+]

[Scribe]

How far apart are we @overgeeked

 

[kermit4karate]

LOVE this prompt, BTW! I'm biased because I think Shadowdark is a masterpiece of indie game design, and it'd be tough to surgically repurpose a handful of its elements elsewhere. It's an example of a game that's greater than the sum of its parts IMO.

Trying to phrase these in the affirmative instead of "don't do this," but here goes:

1. Roll d20 + ability vs DC for nearly everything.
2. Keep classes, abilities and checks easy to resolve
3. Apply advantage/disadvantage instead of stacking modifiers. (Although I must admit I'm not a fan of adv/disadv most of the time. I just think it works beautifully in Shadowdark.)
4. Put players on the clock with the torchlight timer. (Maybe something similar could be repurposed with a different gimmick, something other than the torch, but the timer changes the entire vibe immensely.)
5. Keep hit points and resources tight so every decision matters.
6. Build deadly dungeons/environs with traps, secrets and unpredictable monsters.
7. Make magic powerful but unpredictable and risky.

 

[Aldarc]

LOVE this prompt, BTW! I'm biased because I think Shadowdark is a masterpiece if indie game design, and it'd be tough to surgically repurpose a handful of its elements elsewhere. It's an example of a game that's greater than the sum of its parts IMO.

Trying to phrase these in the affirmative instead of "don't do this," but here goes:

1. Roll d20 + ability vs DC for nearly everything.
2. Keep classes, abilities and checks easy to resolve
3. Apply advantage/disadvantage instead of stacking modifiers. (Although I must admit I'm not a fan of adv/disadv most of the time. I just think it works beautifully in Shadowdark.)
4. Put players on the clock with the torchlight timer. (Maybe something similar could be repurposed with a different gimmick, something other than the torch, but the timer changes the entire vibe immensely.)
5. Keep hit points and resources tight so every decision matters.
6. Build deadly dungeons/environs with traps, secrets and unpredictable monsters.
7. Make magic powerful but unpredictable and risky.

So just play Shadowdark?

 

[kermit4karate]

So just play Shadowdark?

Haha! Perhaps.

 

[overgeeked]

How far apart are we @overgeeked

The more I think about it the more I get lost in the weeds. Here's a pass of what I'm thinking now.

I'd start from a Shadowdark base and mostly add things from Daggerheart. Getting all the easy stuff out of the way: add environments, countdowns/clocks, downtime, ancestry format, mixed-ancestry rules, mixed results with rolls, fiction first, and all the advice about reskinning and accessibility.

Cards/Text. The "PC rules bits" in Shadowdark are small enough that putting them on cards or keeping them as text is a wash. It's more about presentation than any change.

Stats/Scores. I prefer the bonus only approach, so ability scores are out.

Armor. I prefer armor as damage reduction, but I'm not really a fan of how Daggerheart handles it.

Rolling. I am kinda tired of 1d20 and 2d12 still seems awkward. So maybe something like 2d10. Crits on doubles. Total equal to or greater than the TN and it's a crit success; total under the TN and it's a crit fail. I really do like the mix of results from Daggerheart, but I think Fear makes things a bit awkward.

Hope/Fear. This I'm torn on. I love the fiction-forward, mixed results, etc stuff from Daggerheart, and that's the first thing that comes to mind when mixing-and-matching these systems. But I fall more on the side of simplicity and fewer or no metacurrencies.

Lethality. This should be an optional switch between baseline Shadowdark and baseline Daggerheart, which come down to death moves, really. I can see arguments in either direction. But I do think it should be a table decision, not a referee or individual player decision. If the table wants lethal play but one player does not, either that player accepts lethal play or finds a new table. Reason being this is a big genre switch. Four characters in the lethal Shadowdark mode and one immortal Daggerheart character would not be a great gaming experience.

Advancement. If I'm being honest, I'd use neither advancement setup. I'd port in carousing from Pirate Borg. Make your advancements between sessions and the PCs wake up after the party with a situation in their laps.

Spellcasting. As much as I love roll-to-cast, I do love mana points and similar systems. This is one bit I think I'd go with why not both. Make some casters work like Daggerheart and others like Shadowdark.

Initiative. I'm ambivalent. Either works. Depends on the table, really.

Collaborative Worldbuilding. I think the setting is the referee's. Period. If the referee wants to invite the players to contribute things like NPCs, town names, clues, items, etc that the referee can accept or decline, that's great. I'm all for that. But the bits where the players can just dictate the world to the referee go too far.

 

[Scribe]

Hope/Fear. This I'm torn on. I love the fiction-forward, mixed results, etc stuff from Daggerheart, and that's the first thing that comes to mind when mixing-and-matching these systems. But I fall more on the side of simplicity and fewer or no metacurrencies.

So I dont think we are too far off, at least not fatally, other than this.

Its likely since I just havent had exposure to this before, but how hope/fear guides the flow of the game, I really love. I am going to call it Glory and Strife, but otherwise, it just really resonated with me.

 

[kermit4karate]

From D&D, the only thing I would include is...

Shadowdark?

I mean, it's not like it's just loosely based.

 

[overgeeked]

So I dont think we are too far off, at least not fatally, other than this.

Its likely since I just havent had exposure to this before, but how hope/fear guides the flow of the game, I really love. I am going to call it Glory and Strife, but otherwise, it just really resonated with me.

I've played a fair amount of PbtA and BitD games, so I'm used to that same ebb and flow from the dice. That's likely why I'm iffy on the tokens. I don't see what they add by themselves on the fear side, the hope side is pretty obvious. But giving the PC a kind of minor recharge on a "hope" roll instead of a token would be functionally identical.

 

[Aldarc]

The more I think about it the more I get lost in the weeds. Here's a pass of what I'm thinking now.

I'd start from a Shadowdark base and mostly add things from Daggerheart. Getting all the easy stuff out of the way: add environments, countdowns/clocks, downtime, ancestry format, mixed-ancestry rules, mixed results with rolls, fiction first, and all the advice about reskinning and accessibility.

Cards/Text. The "PC rules bits" in Shadowdark are small enough that putting them on cards or keeping them as text is a wash. It's more about presentation than any change.

Stats/Scores. I prefer the bonus only approach, so ability scores are out.

Armor. I prefer armor as damage reduction, but I'm not really a fan of how Daggerheart handles it.

Rolling. I am kinda tired of 1d20 and 2d12 still seems awkward. So maybe something like 2d10. Crits on doubles. Total equal to or greater than the TN and it's a crit success; total under the TN and it's a crit fail. I really do like the mix of results from Daggerheart, but I think Fear makes things a bit awkward.

Hope/Fear. This I'm torn on. I love the fiction-forward, mixed results, etc stuff from Daggerheart, and that's the first thing that comes to mind when mixing-and-matching these systems. But I fall more on the side of simplicity and fewer or no metacurrencies.

Lethality. This should be an optional switch between baseline Shadowdark and baseline Daggerheart, which come down to death moves, really. I can see arguments in either direction. But I do think it should be a table decision, not a referee or individual player decision. If the table wants lethal play but one player does not, either that player accepts lethal play or finds a new table. Reason being this is a big genre switch. Four characters in the lethal Shadowdark mode and one immortal Daggerheart character would not be a great gaming experience.

Advancement. If I'm being honest, I'd use neither advancement setup. I'd port in carousing from Pirate Borg. Make your advancements between sessions and the PCs wake up after the party with a situation in their laps.

Spellcasting. As much as I love roll-to-cast, I do love mana points and similar systems. This is one bit I think I'd go with why not both. Make some casters work like Daggerheart and others like Shadowdark.

Initiative. I'm ambivalent. Either works. Depends on the table, really.

Collaborative Worldbuilding. I think the setting is the referee's. Period. If the referee wants to invite the players to contribute things like NPCs, town names, clues, items, etc that the referee can accept or decline, that's great. I'm all for that. But the bits where the players can just dictate the world to the referee go too far.

If you plan on playing mostly Shadowdark as the base with very little from Daggerheart, I would just play Shadowdark.

 

[Reynard]

If you plan on playing mostly Shadowdark as the base with very little from Daggerheart, I would just play Shadowdark.

That said, I can see using 2d10 and rolling hope and fear as simple narrative nudges.