Orcs preview

[hong]

Sigh.

I am trying to overcome grognardism, on the grounds that when I see the same behavior in others, it irks me, and since hypocrisy is the only sin left in our society, I ought to try to avoid it. So I read the "why we did it" bit for the orc article (and tried not to scream at the authors "You DID notice MMIV ended up on everyone's 'worst 3x book' lists, right?"), and endeavored to keep an open mind.

Sigh again.

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

? There's nothing stopping you fighting orcs at 1st level. Just like there's nothing stopping 1st level PCs in 3E fighting bugbears and ogres, despite these being CR 2 and 3.

Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.)

The idea is basically that they die when hit, thus obviating the need to track hit points for a big mob of creatures. I did something similar the last 3E game I ran. The 11th level party were fighting wights, which were no real challenge despite draining attacks because of crappy BAB. I ruled that any hit dealing 10+ damage was an instant kill. A hit dealing < 10 dmg resulted in a "wounded" wight, and I put a die next to it to indicate its status. Any further hit on a wounded creature was also an instant kill.

Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.

They have all skills at (lvl/2) + (stat bonus/2). They just happen not to have any _trained_ skills.

Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.

For the same reason 10th level rangers will often have worse (base) armour than 2nd level fighters.

 

[hong]

They don't. But I like seeing where the numbers come from; it makes it easier to change things and know what you're doing. Even if it's an arbitrary +2 for balance/fun, I'd like it called out somewhere instead of "hidden" in the stat block.

The whole point is to avoid useless pedantry over whether a given monster is missing a +1 here or -2 there.

 

[Deadstop]

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

Yeah, that surprised (and kinda disappointed) me too. The level curve seems a lot shallower in 4e; both monsters and spells are spread out a lot more, and stuff that used to be relatively low level is pushed higher up on the food chain.

Still, with the two weakest orc types being minions, it can't be that hard to de-level them. Mainly you'd want to drop their inherent attack bonus and defenses to reasonable levels (and the MM or DMG should contain info on the "correct" range of numbers for a given level and role).

Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?

The extra charging speed and the Warrior's Surge (for any orc that's not a minion) seem to be the inherently orcish abilities.

The templates excerpt indicated that there would be "class templates" so that one could quickly add class features/powers to a monster. It wouldn't exactly make a 1st level orc warlord as such, but it would let you make a warlord-y orc.

Also, the orc is almost certainly one of the monster races with a basic PC writeup in the back of the MM, so you could probably create an actual 1st level orc warlord if you want.


Deadstop

 

[Dausuul]

I just realized the one thing that was missing from the orc preview. There needs to be an Orc Overseer, whose main special ability is called "Where There's A Whip, There's A Way."

 

[Stalker0]

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

The way 4e encounter design works, you can still fight orcs at 1st level. If a minion is 4th level, it doesn't mean its out of a 1st level parties league. It just means that the xp value for that creature is higher. In 4e, you add all the xp for each monster you place in the encounter, and that totaled should be close to the recommened amount (I believe at 1st level its 100 xp per party member, but I cannot remember for sure).

So for example you wouldn't throw as many orc minions at a 1st level party as you would kobold minions, but you can still use them. Also, level is an indicator of general defenses and such. A 10th level minion might die in 1 hit, but that hit is a lot harder to come by (higher AC and defenses). You want to avoid a huge disparity in levels normally, just because the high defenses mean your party will whiff a lot.

From personal experience, I ran the pregens against gnolls as well as kobolds (and gnolls are much higher). Trust me, a 1st level party can take on a few higher level monsters.

 

[D.Shaffer]

The actual level seems to be a moot point anyways, for the most part. You're supposed to build an encounter based around the XP of the creature as I understand it, in which case you'd ignore the creature level to begin with.

 

[jaelis]

Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."

We know that monsters and NPCs have healing surges, they just can't generally use them during combat. So you don't need the rats, just wait until you've killed all the pesky adventurers and then healing surge up.

And remember that you really do need to stop thinking of hit points as physical damage, and consider them more as getting worn down.

 

[ThirdWizard]

If Wounded Retaliation is an "immediate reaction," does that mean the orc can only use it once a round? Or am I still thinking too much in 3.5-speak?

Once every creature's turn. Once on the paladin's turn. Once on the ranger's turn. And so forth.

 

[Stormtalon]

Yeah, that surprised (and kinda disappointed) me too. The level curve seems a lot shallower in 4e; both monsters and spells are spread out a lot more, and stuff that used to be relatively low level is pushed higher up on the food chain.

Still, with the two weakest orc types being minions, it can't be that hard to de-level them. Mainly you'd want to drop their inherent attack bonus and defenses to reasonable levels (and the MM or DMG should contain info on the "correct" range of numbers for a given level and role).

Heck, since those level 4 minions (Orc Drudge) are only worth 44xp each, 12 of them would be a perfect match for 5 level 1 characters. Sure, they'd go down fast but they stand a decent chance of doing a good bit of damage before they're done. Add in a single of the lower-level orcs to provide a bigger threat and that'll make 'em sweat while not overpowering them.

 

[Lacyon]

First off, what's with no 1st level orcs? Dammit, YOU FIGHT ORCS AT FIRST LEVEL. Sheesh.

Can't argue with you here. Guess we'll have to fight kobolds and goblins instead.

Second...9th level minions have 1 hit point? (Addendum: I prefer '1 hit point' to 'die when they are hit'. It reduces a lot of rules problems.)

I suspect the actual hit points of minions are pretty flexible. Most of the time it's not even supposed to matter.

Third...fixed damage for minions? Kind of boring, but, meh. I can live with it. I hope there's rules for calculating 'fixed' damage from any weapon, so it's easy to give orc warriors longswords or halberds if you want to.

Since minions are replacing normal monsters at a 4:1 ratio, they get to roll a lot of attacks - and thus a lot of chances to crit. Making the damage fixed eliminates that problem, and also means the DM only rolls only twice as many dice (+3x the attacks, -1x the damages) as using normal monsters, instead of 4x the dice.

Fourth...minions have no skills? None? Well, it does explain the orc lifestyle.

These guys were born for dying.

Fifth...why does the Drudge have better armor than the raider? (+4 over reflex vs. +3) You'd think the more elite an orc was, the better armor he'd have. Seems to fit.

The raider's armor is more comfortable.

Sixth...an orc hospital must consist of a bag of rats. "Whack rat till feel better."

NPCs have healing surges, so out of combat they don't need hospitals anyway.

Seventh...let's say, Ghu forbid, I *do* want to make my own orcs. I know that's "tedious and dull" and no sane DM wants to actually tinker with worldbuilding, but bear me out. Nothing in the article says "This is what a generic orc is". There's no clear indicator which powers are "orc powers" all orcs get, and which are pseudo-class powers. (To judge by the drudge, there's nothing which ALL orcs get by default.) There's not even a basic racial profile to use if I want to build an Orc Fighter from scratch. Do I staple levels onto the minion? The raider? I want to make a first level orc warlord who has gathered some drudges into a bandit gang. How?

It's pretty clear to me that the "orc power" is Warrior's Surge - you even noted this above, so I'm surprised you're having trouble with it now. The only orcs that don't have Warrior's Surge are the 1-hp minions - who couldn't get any use out of it anyway, so why waste the ink writing it in? They also get +movement while charging.

Likewise, the "kobold power" is Shifty, the "gnoll power" is Pack Attack, the "goblin power" is Goblin Tactics, the "hobgoblin power" is Hobgoblin Resilience, etc.

The basic racial profile is likely in the appendix for creating PCs, but if its not you make a first-level orc warlord by making a warlord, giving it +2 str and con (consistently high Orc stats), and giving it Warrior's Surge, along with a movement bonus when charging.

What it boils down to is, I don't see what this system gives me that "Humanoid+levels" didn't. It seems to be more restrictive and more confusing, and if I want to mix "Pre gen" orcs with "custom" orcs, I need, basically, two sets of rules to do it, the "monster" rules and the "pc" rules. That's more retro than I like.

Can someone elaborate the advantages for me? What do you see that's superior about this, other than the fact it basically provides you with a "Box of orcs" you can pick pieces out of, if you happen to like the pieces you've been given?

The only thing this system will ever give you that "humanoid + levels" didn't is quick creation (while remaining consistent with resulting challenge level). For some of us, that alone is cause for celebration.