Orcs preview

[Iron Sky]

AoE attacks, you roll damage once, roll attacks for each target.

 

[Hussar]

How often is a 9th level wizard going to miss hitting a 9th level Orc Warrior Minion? Not to often by predictions.

A typical 9th level wizard has:
+4 to attack from being 9th level
+5 modifier due to an intelligence of 20
+2 attack modifier by virtue of using a +2 implement.

And throw on some miscellaneous +2 bonus from something else like feats, other magic items or an ally's power that's adding bonuses.

You got a bunch of +13 attack rolls, against a bunch of reflex defenses of 16. A 9th level wizard will only miss on a 2 or lower, or with a +11 attack a 4 or lower if they didn't get that miscellaneous +2 bonus.

Shhh, don't bring facts into the discussion. It only ruins the effect.

 

[TwinBahamut]

The problem with ignoring the "Misses don't affect Minions" rule is that it really messes with a lot of other strategies other than "Fireball them all".

For example, look at two known Fighter at-will powers: Cleave and the one that automatically deals damage on a miss. With the "misses don't affect Minions" rule in place, the latter power is no different than a basic attack, and Cleave is a much better choice. Without that rule, the latter power becomes a guaranteed kill whenever you target a minion, something that might be much better than Cleave because of its reliability (even though Cleave seems designed to be the Fighter's best way to take down minions). The latter power is already the superior one for fighting powerful single foes, it should not be comparable to Cleave when fighting large groups.

The other issue is that is just too powerful for anyone to have the power to just be able to automatically kill something just by targeting them. This is especially true for effects like Fireball that hit a large area. Just giving minions more hitpoints will never be enough to make up for a fireball without turning them into something more than a mere minion. At the very least, giving them enough hitpoints so that they have more than 1 but less than the amount so they can survive a full Fireball seems like needless complication when the current rules give the same results. I think it is a lot better if the Wizard simply kills two-thirds of the minions with a Fireball, and there are still possibly some standing that the Fighter or Ranger can kill. No need for one class to have all of the fun...

Besides, shouldn't Wizard Daily powers be saved for groups of enemies that are actually a threat, rather than groups of minions?

 

[FadedC]

The miss thing doesn't partcularly bother me. Normal monsters can shrug off multiple hits and glancing blows before they are killed. Minions can shrug off multiple glancing blows, but one single direct hit kills them.

If you'd prefer you can imagine an orc warrior as an orc with 70 hit points and a special weakness (killed by any damage not caused by a missed attack).

 

[pawsplay]

No, minions are not supposed to cover outmatched enemies, but are supposed to represent Mooks, the guys in media that fall down on a successful hit.

Is taking out only 75% of the active creditable threats at one time really so bad? Sure you could take out a swarm of enemies in previous editions, but they usually were not creditable threats when you could do so.

And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.

 

[Aria Silverhands]

I like the minion rules and not allowing them to die on a miss is perfectly reasonable. Just describe them as bleeding or singed. Maybe dazed. They are injured, just don't die.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

One rule you could consider using if you view minions as being physically/skill-wise different then other creatures of its type when it comes to Miss Attacks.

You can have them collapse apparently dead (or just say their stunned) and have them slowly wake up and brush of the debris, etc. and get back into the fight. It shows they were affected while not being based on their HP.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.

But I think it works better visually. After a big fireball, you expect a few scorched warriors to survive and run away. Killing everyone with one strike would be a unusual event...

 

[pawsplay]

But I think it works better visually. After a big fireball, you expect a few scorched warriors to survive and run away. Killing everyone with one strike would be a unusual event...

Realistlcally? They would all be dead. People caught in fireballs die, because their lungs fry. I am very comfortable with people needing to be All Heroic And Sh-- to survive a fireball strike.

 

[FadedC]

And yet, it still seems to me that outmatched mooks are better off in 4e than in 3e. It's paradoxical.

What is the paradox exactly? 3e had no concept of minions so if you wanted mookss you had to use underleveled opponents who couldn't hurt their enemy. You can still do that in 4e if you really want to for example throwing outclassed lvl 3 orcs raiders against the lvl 10 party rather then lvl 9 orc warriors. The minions are an option if you want your mooks to actually have a chance of being effective.