D&D 5E Order of damage and saving throw at hit (e.g. Giant Spider)

[plancktum]

Hi,

I'm not sure what is the correct interpretation of the Bite Attack of the Giant Spider.

The Target gets piercing Damage and the target makes a saving throw. Ok. Thats ok...
But what happens if the Target is reduced to 0 hp as a consequence of the piercing damage?
Are piercing and poison damage dealt simultaneously? Therefore the target goes to 0 hp and is poisoned (but not stable, cause the piercing damage alone would have reduced the target to 0 hp)?
Or the target goes to 0 hp, then makes the save and takes the poison damage (which results in a failed death save)?
Or is the target stable in anyway due to the poison?

So maybe you can help me. Is there a general rule for saving throws as part of an "hit effect"?

best regards

 

[AriochQ]

Death saving throws are different than poison saving throws. You could house rule it and decide that since he is poisoned he automatically gets one failed death saving throw. If it was me, I would just ignore the poison and start having him roll for stabilization as normal (Unless the poison has some lasting effect, then maybe I would make it either be cured or possible add another success for stabilization to account for the poison in his system).

 

[Sunseeker]

Not all poison damage gives the poisoned condition. Some do, some don't. The attack specifically has to say that it causes the target to be poisoned, and then it will specify how much damage that takes. Unless otherwise specified, ALL parts of an attack happen 'at the same time'. So if you get hit with a poisoned bite and take physical damage and then have to make a con save against becoming poisoned it all happens at once, even if the dice are not rolled at the same time the effects are simultaneous, not sequential. You automatically fail saves while unconscious, but you are not technically unconscious until the attack has completely resolved, which includes making the con save to resist poison.

 

[Tormyr]

Damage from failing a saving throw is separate from damage taken from an attack roll. They happen sequentially. The Hit: piercing damage, and the target must make a Con saving throw taking damage on a failure is your indication. So 1 death saving throw from the poison damage. It also means that the poison damage is not doubled in a critical hit. Only the damage dice from the attack roll are doubled. The damage dice associated with the saving throw are separate.

 

[brehobit]

I'd treat them as one attack.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't know if the rules state one way or the other, but just off-hand, I'd personally rule they were two separate things and that the damage from the failed poison saving throw would cause the first failed Death saving throw.

To me, it feels like it should be that the bite is piercing damage that occurs directly from the bite attack, the poison happens "after" this damage as the poison begins going through the person's system.

Can't say whether this is technically right from a specific and detailed comb over of the rules... but it feels like the right call to me.

 

[mlund]

I don't know if the rules state one way or the other, but just off-hand, I'd personally rule they were two separate things and that the damage from the failed poison saving throw would cause the first failed Death saving throw.

If it is in the attack profile and it doesn't have a delayed trigger, then its all one attack and one lump of damage.

Same thing goes for a magic sword that does 1d8 slashing damage + 2d6 fire damage on a critical hit. You don't go to 0 HP from the slashing damage and then eat a failed Death Saving Throw for the fire damage.

Now if the sword set you on fire and you took ongoing fire damage of some sort then the later times where you roll for fire damage would all be separate.

Marty Lund

 

[plancktum]

Ok, do some of you have a page number or so for the statement, that all damage is applied at once?

 

[mlund]

Ok, do some of you have a page number or so for the statement, that all damage is applied at once?

Why would you need a page number? That's how resolving attack effects works and has always worked. If you have an effect that says, "the next time you take damage, reduce it by 10" and an attack does 7 piercing damage with 5 cold damage on a failed save you take 2 damage, not 5.

You only "divide up" damage into separate intervals when explicitly instructed to do so by the game rules, like, "At the end of each of the target's turns it takes 5 poison damage and then may make a DC 12 constitution save to end this effect."

Marty Lund

 

[Tormyr]

I would key it off how the critical hit handles poison, which seems to be separate.

http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/11/24/critical-poison/

Before I read this, I was thinking the Assassin could do 24d6 on a crit. My interpretation is that in the small chance where the piercing damage fells the creature, the poison does works through their unconscious system for 1 death saving throw. For a creature like the assassin, this would lower the chance of a character's death through massive damage.