Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Dire Bare]

Actually, OA was written by Zeb Cook, though Gygax was credited as the author and Cook as the editor. Apparently Cook found Gyhaxes draft embarrassingly stereotypical, so set out to rewrite from the ground up in a more culturally sensitive manner: he really hit the books, and used every book on Asia available st the Lake Geneva public library.

Which is kind of gobsmacking: what must the original draft have been like?

Thanks, I seemed to remember someone else being the primary on OA, but when I looked it up just now, Gygax is given top billing of course.

Okay, so, I'm not mad at Zeb Cook! He's good people, and I have faith he did his best with the resources available at the time. I'm curious if anyone's ever asked him, decades later, his thoughts on the book . . . .

 

[Parmandur]

From the DMsGuils history (which predates any current controversy getting. Ig):

"David "Zeb" Cook was consulting on the project because of his interest in Japanese history and culture. As a result, when Marcela-Froideval turned in a manuscript for the book that was just 30-60 double-spaced pages, it landed in Cook's lap. Gygax then wrote Cook a contract to prepare the book on his own, with just 4-5 months to go on the deadline."

"Everyone agrees that the resulting manuscript is 100% Cook's own, perhaps inspired by some of the ideas suggested by Gygax and in Marcela-Froideval's notes. However in much later years Gygax would claim that Cook "ramrodded" his book through TSR, with the intent to "sink Francois' material", and that he did so by taking advantage of the fact that Gygax was "engrossed in the business affairs of TSR"."

"Both Cook and the book's main editor, Mike Breault, disagree with this interpretation of events. Cook points toward his contract and says that Gygax was fully informed on how the book was being prepared."

"Whatever the specifics, the book’s accepted origins are: Gygax came up with the idea; Marcela-Froideval wrote a manuscript that wasn’t published; and then Cook wrote a manuscript that was."

 

[Parmandur]

Thanks, I seemed to remember someone else being the primary on OA, but when I looked it up just now, Gygax is given top billing of course.

Okay, so, I'm not mad at Zeb Cook! He's good people, and I have faith he did his best with the resources available at the time. I'm curious if anyone's ever asked him, decades later, his thoughts on the book . . . .

Oh, man, I tell you, I would love to see Zeb Cook, James Wyatt, and the Asians Represent crew do a panel. James Wyatt, as the author of the 3E OA, has been very supportive on social media of the Asians Represent crew, and owned the criticism he got as valid.

 

[Dire Bare]

I loved AD&D 1e OA when it was released. Within a few years I became more worldly and started to smell the ick-factor. Even so, I bought the 3E update hoping for something better, and, I don't know, maybe it was better? Probably not. Kwan's analysis was too long for me to sit through in its entirety, but he and his group were right about a lot of things. Yes, it's a racist work.

Yeah, the Asians Represent episodes go on for hours, and the conversations tend to ramble a bit.

If I remember correctly, the consensus of the panel was that OA 3E was better than OA 1E . . . . but still suffered from many of the same issues. As does some of the Asian representation even in 5E.

 

[TerraDave]

So we have at least go the authorship of the book.

And of course, happy new year!

 

[Alzrius]

seeing their culture reduced to a theme-park version

I can't help but notice that none other than Jon Peterson takes to the comments of that Analog Game Studies article to point out that it has serious flaws, saying "There are serious questions about the reductionism and appropriation inherent in simulating both the real and the imaginary, but we can’t engage them through a distorted historical lens. This is becoming tiresomely familiar as the method by which Analog Game Studies approaches D&D."

 

[Mallus]

Do I think OA was racist? No.

The name is an embarrassment. But that was true back in the 1980s when it was first released. Aside from that the book displays the depth and historical accuracy I expect from an AD&D supplement .

Note: this isn’t a dismissal of other people’s criticisms. Nor is it an exercise of my privilege (complicated as that may be), since I had the privilege of being called an ‘oriental boy’ more than once growing up.

 

[Dire Bare]

I am just curious if there will be any actual references to the Oriental Adventures book. Like the actual text. Before this thread is closed.

So we have at least go the authorship of the book.

And of course, happy new year!

Huh?

I think you are trying to imply some of us are criticizing Oriental Adventures without having read it . . . virtue signaling, if you will. If that is your assertion, I'll not engage with you any further.

I'm a white guy who purchased Oriental Adventures (both versions) off the shelf when they were first published. I loved them, and didn't see any issues with them at the time. In fact, I assumed they were loving, respectful, accurate (if fantastical) interpretations of Asian cultures. It took listening to Asian voices discussing the orientalism of the books to open my eyes, relatively recently, but prior to my discovery of the Asians Represent podcast. I've gone back and read through my copies again (I've got it all on digital, my physical copies are long gone), and yeah, it's all there.

Zeb Cook was not a terrible racist for writing the original Oriental Adventures as it was, he just unwittingly passed on the systemic racism that is, well, systemic in Western culture. I was not a terrible racist for purchasing the book and using it in my games, nor were any of my fellow grognards who are all now pushing 50 (or more).

As Umbran has pointed out, we've had this discussion here multiple times before, no need to get into the weeds again. If you haven't yet, listen to some of the Asian voices who are critical of Oriental Adventures, the Asians Represent podcast is a good start if you are genuinely interested in an Asian perspective.

If anyone does have any sections of the book ready to quote, by all means, bring it into the conversation. But those of us not willing to take the time . . . again . . . does not make our issues with the title not legit.

 

[Malmuria]

OP thanks for scouring the internet for the most toxic and bigoted things you can find. I assume for your next act you'll link to an 8chan post and innocently ask us what we think.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I had OA back in the day, but I don't recall much about it, except that I thought the older Bushido game was better. Has L5R taken any flak?