[OT] Upon watching PJ butcher another's work.

[National Acrobat]

I can say that along with some others, I was totally blown away by the FotR. Great movie. I thought TTT was good as a movie, but I do have my gripes with the changes from book to film, but they really didn't keep me from enjoying the movie for what it was. A darn good fantasy movie. I saw an 8 o'clock showing which had little to no kids or teenagers present. I could tell that the scene with Arwen and the 'rescue' of Aragorn didn't really go over well because about half of the theatre, including myself, took a bathroom break at that time. Other than that, I think everyone enjoyed it.

 

[KnowTheToe]

Now that we are getting past trollish statements like urination, we can finally discuss the nit and grit of the likes and dislikes. I enjoyed the whole movie, thought it was as good as the first, adn showed great promise as to what fantasy can be.

I will agree that the Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn fighting the guards would have been better served if Gandalf's mere presence kept the guards at bay, but that is my opinion and does not in any way hurt the movie.

I will also agree that the death of Aragorn was unneccessary and might have been better served developing another part of the story, but I cannot say. After watching much of the very boring interviews and discussions on the FoTR DVD, it seems to me Jackson put a lot of thought into every aspect of the film and did not lightly gloss over things. It could be the movie team tried several other angles and did not think they worked very well.

As far as Faramir goes, I had not read the books in full and can't have any valididated opinion on this, but I think Eric Noah is probably correct in his assumptions of character and development and time. He has posted it in the other threads on this topic.

If you think this movie was bad, rent Kate and Leopold. Talk about a movie with pointless scenes and plot holes...

 

[Ysgarran]

First was the audience, which at 6:30 was mostly middle/high school immature kids. VERY annoying, a definitely plan to go back and see it again without them. I had to explain to the kid who wouldn't stop talking to me that I'd read the books for the first time 15 years ago, and many times since then. Ugh.

I had this happen to me also. I got the strong impression that the only reason they went to see the movie was because of the battle scenes. About half way through the movie I had to tell them to keep their comments to themselves.

I suspect this is going to be the weakest of the three films. I don't feel as strong Celebrim about the weaknesses of the film though. Celebrim does have some valid points, especially this business with Aragorn falling off a cliff.

Visually I thought the movie was truly impressive. Gollum is probably the greatest computer animated character in film up to this point in time.

Ysgarran.

 

[Celebrim]

I may be in the minority on really disliking the movie, but I don't think I'm in the minority in disliking what was done with Faramir, or in thinking that Merry & Pippin relationship with Treebeard was done badly, or in thinking the whole Arwen thing was awkward. Nor am I the only one who was bothered by any of the complaints I've raised, I just seem to be the only on this board that was bothered by all of them. Amongst my friends at work, my opinion is not an unusual one.

"Faramir only seems to react to outside circumstances, rather than making the right decisons on his own. And his tone and expression when telling his men to take Frodo and Sam to his father "bearing a great gift" made me feel like the Ring had its hooks into him already, after a much shorter time than it took Boromir to be corrupted."

I am of the crowd that believes when you write something, what you write next should logically follow from what has happened before. Call me odd. I defy anyone to explain what the motivation was for Faramir's sudden change of heart other than the fact that in the book Faramir is a good guy, and the future story is emperiled if Faramir doesn't become a good guy at some point. When Frodo tried to give the ring to the Nazgul, and Sam came to his sudden ephinany and made his speach, what does this have to do with Faramir? Given Faramir's actions judged only by his character within the film, the logic thing for him to do when he sees Frodo aiding the vassel of Sauron is kill Frodo quickly and claim the ring for himself. He doesn't for reasons that have nothing to do with the story PJ is telling.

Call me odd, but if I were Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas and had just been completely disarmed and overpowered by Gandalf in the previous scene, I wouldn't feel the need to take on the house carls of Edoras bare handed in order to protect him. I don't think I would see this as a means of establishing trust, and while maybe you could argue it was in character for a hot head like Gimli or Legolas - hadn't we just seen Aragorn use a bit more tact just a few scenes earlier?

And just how many times must you throw people off great heights and have them appear to be dead in one movie? Gandalf once, ok. But then Aragorn for no particular reason and adding nothing too the story, and then Aragorn again after getting blown off the top of the wall of Helm's Deep. This is good movie making? I suppose you are going to tell me all those single silent movie tears were subtle?

Tom: I got worked up again after coming into work and talking it over with my friends and "schlockmeister responsible for the ever-so-schlocky watered-down-fantasy mass-media tripe that is..." pretty well describes my feelings about TTT and PJ's directing/writing decisions. Like I said, I never thought I'd find myself thinking Chris Columbus would have been a better alternative, but there you go.

 

[KnowTheToe]

"Faramir only seems to react to outside circumstances, rather than making the right decisons on his own. And his tone and expression when telling his men to take Frodo and Sam to his father "bearing a great gift" made me feel like the Ring had its hooks into him already, after a much shorter time than it took Boromir to be corrupted."

You don't know any of Faramir's motivations in this movie. You assummed PJ was having the ring control his actions, but maybe he had internal struggles and was unsure what to do, then he received a message, his men were needed elsewhere and took Frodo with him. His actions with Gollum were not mean, he captured him alive and could have easily shot him. I took it as mercy. Maybe it was not until the scene with the Nazgul that he made his decision. The ring did not have to have anything to do with how he acted, it could have been indecision caused by the complexity of the situation.

Just for my info, because the only people who I have heard from that had serious gripes about the movie, were huge fans of the books, what fantasy movies would you say were as good or better?

 

[Desdichado]

And how does this have to do with anything I said? Why make a straw man out of my complaints by comparing me to a bunch of purist nit pickers that don't understand how to tell a story? Did I make any complaints like that? No, quite the contrary, I said, PJ actually put too much of this purist nit picky stuff in the movie just to be able to say he did so - and it hurt his movie.

Ahh, the Internet. Where any bozo with a bone to pick with anything can get his say in. If I were interested in the kinds of attacks you're making on the movie, I could at least read a professional critics opinion, rather than some anonymous yahoo on a D&D message board. By the way, the professional critics seem to all disagree with you - at least the about dozen or so major reviews I've read of the movie.

Please. It started out as 'not Tolkein but at least the very best D&D movie ever made', but before the end of the movie PJ had completely lost his way in the story. Only his good use of fantasy action and borrowed Tolkien grandeur was really keeping people in the story. Judged on its own merits, this wasn't even the movie that Gladiator or Braveheart was.

Funny. Gladiator came across to me as one of the most over-rated movies of the decade. Russell Crowe as best actor that year? C'mon -- is this just a popularity contest or what? He sleep-walked through the whole movie, and the story was just Braveheart in a Roman setting.

 

[Celebrim]

"You don't know any of Faramir's motivations in this movie."

Ewww... now there is a great defence of PJ's characterization. You are assuming that I am assuming something about Faramir's motivations. I'm not. I quoted a guy that did, but I'm just trying to grasp what Faramir's motivations were in terms of this movie. However, even if I did conclude that Faramir was under the control of the ring, don't you would think I would be justified in concluding that given Galadriels voice-over narration just before that describing how the ring was calling to men and had almost achieved its purpose?

How did Faramir immediately conclude from Gollum saying 'my precious', that Frodo bore the Ring of Power? Please only use movie internal logic.

Given that Faramir never explained why the pool was forbidden, explain how the audience is supposed to see Faramir as anything as a cruel and cunning person who is sadistically enjoying tormenting Frodo by forcing him to betray his companion? Please only use internal movie logic. Explain what they _are_ supposed to feel about Faramir given the acting and direction.

 

[Henry]

Celebrim, please don't take this as a slam, but if your opinion of the first movie was that it was merely "OK", then I have a strong belief that I will at the least enjoy The Two Towers immensely. You and I, having come from different experiences of Tolkien, have totally different opinions of these movies. Whereas you see a butcher of the source material, I see the Greatest Fantasy Movie of the entire 20th century. If you count the Star Wars Trilogy as fantasy, then I call it the Second Greatest Fantasy Movie.

As I noted in earlier threads, Peter Jackson has defined Tolkien for me because, try as I might, I could not, and cannot, get through the prose of Tolkien - it comes off as so unwieldy as to be frozen to me. While he may tell a great story, I cannot understand that story, because it is buried in beautiful but prolific discussions of minutiae of the world he described, with the only way to take it in to dig through it one page at a time. Its something that I will have to accept as my loss, but I have to thank Tolkien for inspiring one of the best-written and produced movies on the silver screen.

That's why I take it for what it is - because when all is said and done, if this story is even one TENTH the experience that Tolkien fans and scholars say that his books are, then I am overjoyed that I am alive in this day and age to see such a fun experience.

I will actually be saddened when the third part rolls around, because my friends and I have started a sort of ritual at Christmas time, and after next year the ritual will have to change.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

And just how many times must you throw people off great heights and have them appear to be dead in one movie? Gandalf once, ok. But then Aragorn for no particular reason and adding nothing too the story, and then Aragorn again after getting blown off the top of the wall of Helm's Deep. This is good movie making? I suppose you are going to tell me all those single silent movie tears were subtle?

I didn't take the incident on the wall as "look, Aragorn's Dead!" I just took it as he got blown off the wall. Were you similarly enraged when he got knocked out by the Cave Troll in Moria?

I must have missed all these silent tears that people claim were there; the only time I can think of was with Eowyn. Can you provide us with some other examples?

 

[Desdichado]

I must have missed all these silent tears that people claim were there; the only time I can think of was with Eowyn. Can you provide us with some other examples?

It's all blown out of proportion. Arwen did it, but it was certainly appropriate there. Sam also did it once or maybe twice, but again, it really fit the scene. The one that didn't fit, IMO, was Grima dropping a silent tear when Saruman showed him the army.

BTW, that scene gets my vote for most boneheaded. Here's Grima: "But master, we can't take take Helm's Deep without an army several thousands strong! There's no such army around." Looks out the window at the army of 10,000 Uruk-hai. Drops a silent tear.