Oversized Reach Weapons

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm trying to figure out the interaction of a M PC + L reach weapon + growth effects (Enlarge Person, Expansion, or the like) + Feats that allow extension or shortening of grips on reach weapons.

To do that, I need to make sure I have the fundamentals of the M PC with a L reach weapon down solid- the rest will follow pretty logically.

So:

1) A reach weapon for a M creature allows attacks out to 10', but generally not in the adjacent spaces.

2) A reach weapon for a L creature allows that creature to attack out to 15-20', but not 10' or closer.

What happens when a M creature wields a L reach weapon (due to Powerful Build or Monkey Grip)?

My reading of the rules is the PC's oversized reach weapon threatens spaces 10-15' away (+5' more than a M reach weapon), not 20' (because the L creature's use of the reach weapon takes into account its natural 10' reach), and that he still can't attack 5' or closer.

Is this correct?

 

[Hypersmurf]

My reading of the rules is the PC's oversized reach weapon threatens spaces 10-15' away (+5' more than a M reach weapon), not 20' (because the L creature's use of the reach weapon takes into account its natural 10' reach), and that he still can't attack 5' or closer.

Strictly? The Medium creature with a Large reach weapon is... wielding a reach weapon. He threatens 10 feet, but not 5 feet. The rules don't really cater for it with anything special.

Savage Species had a set of rules, based on the 3E weapon size system; it's easy enough to update for 3.5.

Once you do so, the Medium creature with the Large reach weapon threatens 15 feet, but not 10 or 5 (a Medium creature threatens 'one ring', and a Large reach weapon shifts that ring outwards by two). A Large creature with a Medium reach weapon threatens 10 feet and 15 feet, but not 5 (a Large creature threatens 'two rings', and a Medium reach weapon shifts that ring outwards by one).

You can see from this system how a Medium creature with a Medium reach weapon threatens 10 feet - one ring, outshifted one - and a Large creature with a Large reach weapon threatens 15 and 20 - two rings, outshifted two.

A Small reach weapon shifts one, just like a Medium.

A Tiny reach weapon doesn't shift at all for anyone with a reach of 5' or more, but as a special property, it permits creatures with a zero reach to threaten adjacent squares (but not their own).

It's the system I personally favour for inappropriately-sized reach weapons... but in vanilla 3.5, a Medium creature threatens 10 feet with any reach weapon, and a Large creature gains no benefit from a Medium reach weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Strictly? The Medium creature with a Large reach weapon is... wielding a reach weapon. He threatens 10 feet, but not 5 feet. The rules don't really cater for it with anything special.

Right...because instead of basing the weapon's reach on the size of the weapon, its based upon the wielder's natural reach. Gotcha. A reach weapon:

"double(s) the wielder's natural reach (PHB p113)"

Of course, it doesn't make sense- the L reach weapon is clearly longer than the M one (and by several feet)- but there are other rules that are wonky.

Since I can't read the DM's mind, I guess I'll just have an alternate feat selection in mind for my PC.

A strict reading or my interpretation doesn't affect the PC's play that much, but if he uses the SS rules you mention, then there is a gap in the L weapon's threatened area, which would necessitate taking something like the Shorten Grip/Short Haft feats to cover (the PC's armor is already spiked).

This will matter more when the PC "goes big," becoming a L creature wielding a H weapon...

 

[frankthedm]

Of course, it doesn't make sense- the L reach weapon is clearly longer than the M one (and by several feet)- but there are other rules that are wonky.

A Large Long creature uses the same sized weapons as a large tall. The large tall creature gets far more reach out of the deal.

[IMagel]http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/791/ogrecentaryv3.png[/IMagel] But that is not really that big of an issue since powerful build, the better of the two "wield a larger weapon abilities" specify no additional reach is gained.

Powerful Build:
The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

 

[milo]

What about the spiked chain in the hands of a large creature? I have never really found the rules on this, but have ran it as 15' reach threatening every square.

 

[frankthedm]

What about the spiked chain in the hands of a large creature? I have never really found the rules on this, but have ran it as 15' reach threatening every square.

It doubles the wielder's reach, threatening every square. Centaur would treaten out to 10', the ogre would treaten out to 20', as shown on the image above.

The exact text of the spiked chain creates a small issue the Faq addressed.

Q: The description of the spiked chain states that it is a
reach weapon that can be used against adjacent foes. What
if a Large creature wields a Large spiked chain? Can it
attack the squares that are 10 feet away? What are the
adjacent foes of a Large or larger creature?

A: As with the vast majority of examples in the Player’s
Handbook, the spiked chain description assumes that the
wielder is a Small or Medium creature wielding a spiked chain
appropriate to her size. What the description really means is
that a character wielding a spiked chain can attack creatures
that are within her natural reach (in addition to those at the
normal range of a reach weapon). For a Medium or Small
creature, that means creatures that are 5 feet away (i.e.,
“adjacent”).
A Large creature wielding a spiked chain (or similar reach
weapon that also allowed attacks against adjacent creatures)
could attack creatures within her natural reach (that is, who are
either 5 or 10 feet away), in addition to those at the normal
range of a Large reach weapon (15 or 20 feet away).
A Huge creature wielding a spiked chain could attack
creatures 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet away. A Gargantuan
creature wielding a spiked chain could attack creatures 5, 10,
15, 20, 25, 30, 35, or 40 feet away, and a Colossal creature
wielding a spiked chain could attack creatures anywhere from 5
to 60 feet away

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about the spiked chain in the hands of a large creature? I have never really found the rules on this, but have ran it as 15' reach threatening every square.

A Large spiked chain? It's a reach weapon of appropriate size, so it threatens 15 feet and 20 feet, but not 5 or 10... with the exception that as a spiked chain, you threaten adjacent squares.

So, 5, 15, and 20 feet, but not 10.

At least, as written in the PHB.

-Hyp.

 

[mvincent]

So, 5, 15, and 20 feet, but not 10.

At least, as written in the PHB.

Curious: do you feel the FAQ ruling on this is a good one?

 

[frankthedm]

Curious: do you feel the FAQ ruling on this is a good one?

He might want to avoid giving large spiked chain wielders anything more than phb text gives them.

Kind of like how charging can sometimes be shut down with a strict reading of charging text combined with the rules for determining the closest square. Preventing charging over terrain the charger could have jumped over and having the charge path's end randomly determined due to how square are counted.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Curious: do you feel the FAQ ruling on this is a good one?

I think the FAQ suggests a change that the individual DM may find to his taste.

-Hyp.