D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[dmccoy1693]

People have said that 4E is a completely different game than 3.5. It's not. It's way too similar to 3.5, if what you want is to isolate it from the open content of the 3.5 SRD. It's still the d20 system, but with some small changes to the core mechanics, and the trickle-down effects derived thereof. 5th edition will have to be a lot more different from 4E than 4E is from 3E if they want to completely cut it off from the OGL.

"If the foundation moves, the earthquake has already begun. If the foundation moves, can the building stand? How much less a poorly supported building?"

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

WoTC is stuck with the d20/OGL world. If they try to close the system, they'll create their strongest-ever competition. Whether they like or not, they will have to keep D&D open until they abandon tabletop roleplaying entirely.

 

[(contact)]

Whether they like or not, they will have to keep D&D open until they abandon tabletop roleplaying entirely.

And I would suspect that they like it.

The OGL wasn't created to shrink the hobby, it was created to deepen consumer/co-producer investment in the game, negate the expensive and potentially disatrous need to aggressively defend IP and trademarks *against* the natural flow of the hobby itself (gamers sharing stuff with other gamers), and essentially out-source the creation of types of content that tend to be a riskier production.

From where I sit on my comfy couch, the OGL has been a huge win for WotC (although it's blunted my long-held hope that I'd some day get an old-skull T$R cease-and-desist letter I've always wanted).

Would they love to set some kind of entry bar to ensure better quality accross the d20 spectrum? Sure. Can it be done without excluding the Paizos, Green Ronins and Necromancer Games of the future? Not so much.

 

[Odhanan]

Fact: Market research said New Coke tasted better than Coke and Pepsi. The reason it failed? Market research is nonsense.

It isn't "nonsense" to research the potential impact of a product on the market, no, but Market Research is theory. It is often insightful, but it shouldn't be trusted blindly. Sometimes, it can even miss something terribly important that will make the actual product fail miserably.

 

[megamania]

just my two cents-

Pazio and everyone else (including us really) are circling waiting for concrete information on 4e. Most everything seen on the net is still hearsay / rumor.



Now that said-

I love it IF Pazio considered keeping some 3.5 stuff going as well as 4e. How this would work I'm unsure since splitting one's focus hurts both (Dungeon/Polyhydron) and tough decisions are required.

In the mean time, lets keep an open mind... we are all waiting together.......

 

[Erik Mona]

I think it's important to point out that Scott Rouse and Bill Slavicsek were clear about supporting the OGL at Gen Con, even if it was clear they did not yet have a concrete plan. I suspect there are still elements at WotC who think the OGL/d20 licenses are a bad idea (there always have been, especially in the beginning), but the business reasons for supporting the licenses are clear.

WotC tells me the rules are coming, and I believe them. All this talk of sticking with 3.5 or developing 3.75 is me thinking out loud because I've got to consider all of the possible routes Paizo could take. I still believe that the best move for us (and, as it happens, for WotC) is switching to 4.0 and using that as the basis for our output.

--Erik

 

[DaveMage]

WotC tells me the rules are coming, and I believe them. All this talk of sticking with 3.5 or developing 3.75 is me thinking out loud because I've got to consider all of the possible routes Paizo could take. I still believe that the best move for us (and, as it happens, for WotC) is switching to 4.0 and using that as the basis for our output.

--Erik

Do you think 4E will be as successful as 3.0 was?

 

[Desdichado]

Those who are hard-core anti-4e, those who are calling it the "New Coke" of D&D are just like everyone else, beholden not to reason but to viceral emotional responses. All people, myself included, react to change emotionally first and this reaction is based on an emotional connection to the product in question regardless of its merits. The only thing that can shake this is a dispassionate analysis of the issue and it is very hard for fans to be objective about their fandom.

I think there's a strong element of "we're not ready" yet too. Some people flock to new product offerings just because they're new. Their old perfectly viable cellphones and mp3 players simply weren't good enough anymore once the iPhone was out, etc. Others hold on to stuff that works fine and replace it as needed.

See, I drive a 1995 Plymouth Neon. I mostly only take it to and from work. It's not a thing of beauty or comfort either one, but it's 100% paid for and it runs pretty reliably. Would I like a new car? Yeah, sure, I wouldn't say no to one. Will I buy it myself? Heck, no! Why would I spend that kind of money on something that I have no need of?

I think that's where a lot of 4e resistance is coming from. Certainly that's my resistance factor. I don't need it, and I'm too cheap to re-up just to "keep up with the Joneses" of the RPG world. Not only that, I have a lot of 3e and 3.5 product that I can (and do) use regularly that probably I can't use in 4e unless backwards compatability is a lot better than the previews to date have suggested. Therefore, I'm putting myself out tons of money and getting a demonstrably worse gaming experience even if the rules are better, because I am now limited to a handful of books that are in print.

Combine that with the fact that instead of D&D, I'd rather be playing OGL Conan, or The Black Company, or even d20 Modern (+ d20 Past) than D&D anyway, but the rulesets are all so closely related that most products I have are easily interchangeable amongst them, and, well...the equation just doesn't add up. 4e is not a compelling sell to me. Not because it's an emotional response; in fact, it's a very reasoned cost/benefit analysis to me. The emotional response side of the equation is telling me to jump feet first into 4e, it's the reasoned response that's saying, "what for?"

I know people who would not buy an xbox360 despite their desire for a next gen system because Sony isn't the Debbil the way MS is. They stuck to their crappy PS2s and now have PS3s. They could care less whether the PS3 is a superior system. What matters to them is that it is a Sony. Irrational as hell, but human nature nonetheless.

Heh. Lately, I'd say it's the other way around. Microsoft---especially the Xbox division---is much less the Debbil than Sony is.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

From where I sit on my comfy couch, the OGL has been a huge win for WotC (although it's blunted my long-held hope that I'd some day get an old-skull T$R cease-and-desist letter I've always wanted).

Oh, I "fondly" remember that the Webmaster of our group's website got an email from Amigo, the (once upon a time) German publisher of D&D 3rd edition. They asked us to remove a few pictures and notes, and especially remove or rename a Prestige Class we invented.
We called it "Spell Berserker", and it was a Sorceror/Barbarian multiclass PrC (who would have thought?). They claimed that it copied of a class out of Dragon.

I don't think this helped me in decision to pick up the German translations of the Core book. (Though Amigo is no longer responsible for the D&D line in Germany, as far as I know.)

 

[Erik Mona]

Do you think 4E will be as successful as 3.0 was?

I predict, without reservation, that 4E will be a fundamentally more successful business based on what I've seen. I think a lot of people who are bent out of shape about what they have heard so far are going to buy the rules, like them, and convert their campaigns. I think others will be pulled along by their friends and will grudgingly go over, and find out that they like the system.

I am trying to take all of the support for a 3.5 "legacy" offshoot with a giant grain of salt. I think the majority, perhaps a sizable majority, of the existing audience will convert within a year or two. I think a lot of people who are steadfastly posting against 4E on EN World are going to be excited as hell about the game in two year's time. A system can change a lot without really making an old RPG product worthless. So as long as the rules "feel like" D&D, people won't feel like they've wasted their investment. I think Wizards knows this, and I think they've likely made "make sure it still feels like D&D" their #1 design goal, their "golden rule," so to speak. And these guys are really good game designers, so I trust that they're on the job.

--Erik