D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[The Little Raven]

Those gamers, by the way, are also known as "lost customer base".

Why wouldn't they pay attention the customers that are currently buying their products, since they've demonstrated a willingness to do so in solid, material terms, unlike those that openly state that they haven't purchased anything in years and have no intentions to do so in the future?

 

[Dragonblade]

Maybe because the point discussed (and that he related to) was the question of the (current and future) success of WotC as a publisher, and he posted as a grumpy and dissatisfied customer of WotC to point out that there are customers like him who are disappointed enough by the recent products of WotC that they won't consider giving 4E even a cursory chance?

Fair enough. Its just I see so much negativity and people getting so worked up about it. Especially people, and not just sjmiller but people on other forums, who practically brag that they don't even buy WotC products and they are just so negative and damning of 4e.

If you don't even buy their stuff, then what are you so worked up about?

Now the people who have a library of WotC stuff that they are worried about being invalidated, I can sympathize with. I have an extensive library of WotC stuff, too. But I bought it with the understanding that eventually there would be a new edition, and I just don't let it bother me. Besides I can still play 3e if I like, and I can raid my books for all sorts of ideas for use in 4e as well.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

Hah, that's actually funny, seeing that a LOT of those gamers that once were active customers and then stopped buying WotC products did this because they felt WotC stopped listening to their opinion and making products that THEY want...and that feel even more ignored now, because WotC doesn't seem to give a rat's ass about those gamers opinions and maybe regaining their money. You know, every D&D gamer was once an active customer, until he felt TSR/WotC stopped listening to him and making the products he wanted.

I was going to post this exact same thing but you beat me to it.

My stance has changed on 4E a bit, the more that I learn about it. I can see liking some of it as player but as a DM there are things that just seem like a big ol fist full of suck. I plan to test the waters with the SRD and at most I'll pick up the 4E PHB later down the line. But having been a WOTC supporter for a long time ( I have shelves of 3.0 -3.5 books) I've pretty much learned my lesson about supporting them and by extension the 3rd party publishers.

I've got enough 3.5 adventure material to choke a donkey and will run 3.5 for as long as I can. But if I do ever switch over to 4E it'll be as a player only and as a player that'll mean fewer purchases as I'm not buying things to support my game. And I'm fine with that. I think that I've come to a balance in my feelings about the new system, don't love it, I don't hate it. It turns out that I'll be spending a lot less money on this hobby and that's ok.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

If you don't even buy their stuff, then what are you so worked up about?

Well, basically that is one (of many potential) ways of shouting "Hey WotC, I was once your customer, but you're going in directions I don't want to go and producing stuff I don't like, so here I'm telling you you're losing my money! Care, dammit!"

 

[Rechan]

Well, basically that is one (of many potential) ways of shouting "Hey WotC, I was once your customer, but you're going in directions I don't want to go and producing stuff I don't like, so here I'm telling you you're losing my money! Care, dammit!"

Well, there's the distinct possibility that the direction they are going is the direction they see more customers are (The newer generation and the current trends). If they've been trying to appeal to that demographic for two+ years, and it's not giving you what you want...

If a company has to decide between More, New customers and Disaffected Customers Unhappy with Newish Direction the Company has been Going, what do you think they're going to do?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well, there's the distinct possibility that the direction they are going is the direction they see more customers are (The newer generation and the current trends). If they've been trying to appeal to that demographic for two+ years, and it's not giving you what you want...

If a company has to decide between More, New customers and Disaffected Customers Unhappy with Newish Direction the Company has been Going, what do you think they're going to do?

That a trick question? Come on, I'm not saying WotC shouldn't behave like a capitalistic corporation.

All I'm saying is that the disappointed customer might not take solace in the fact that the company that he has bought stuff from in the past and that has (in his eyes) left him behind will be financially better off from that move, and face a stable future customer base without him included in their further design decisions.

 

[DaveMage]

If you have no intention of buying 4e and all you can post is how WotC means nothing to you, why post here? Why?

Because there are friends and publishers that read these forums. For those of us not switching, we want to communicate to people that they will have some support if they stick with 3.5. And we're explaining why.

If WotC cares at all (their choice), then they can use these negative posts to see where their marketing has failed and adjust accordingly if desired.

And, in a meta sense, if everyone had the same opinion, then there would be nothing to talk about. Reading multiple viewpoints can also help one make a decision. If you're on the fence, then you want to hear arguments in both directions to make the best choice for you.

 

[catsclaw227]

Because there are friends and publishers that read these forums. For those of us not switching, we want to communicate to people that they will have some support if they stick with 3.5. And we're explaining why.

I understand this explanation.

If WotC cares at all (their choice), then they can use these negative posts to see where their marketing has failed and adjust accordingly if desired.

I am curious, DaveMage, if they don't change anything that they are doing, either mechanically or with the fluff, how would you recommend that they market the changes in 4e to not alienate the older guard.

 

[DaveMage]

I am curious, DaveMage, if they don't change anything that they are doing, either mechanically or with the fluff, how would you recommend that they market the changes in 4e to not alienate the older guard.

At this point, I really don't know.

From the "cloud watching" comment to the new business model (multiple core rulebooks), I think it may be too late.

I posted this elsewhere, but there were two things that Adkison did when 3.0 came along that went a long way with me. I had lots of 2E material and was distressed at 3E. But Adkison and Dancey said:

1) All your 2E fluff is still good; and
2) Here's a free conversion manual to help with the transition (so that even your 2E crunch could be converted

Both of these are absent in the 4E marketing. Also, any maybe I'm misremembering as well, but the attitude from Wizards back then was "we know this is really different, but please try it because we really think you will like it". And then, Tiamat and Bahamut appeared in Dragon magazine with their 3.0 stats - very cool!

 

[catsclaw227]

I posted this elsewhere, but there were two things that Adkison did when 3.0 came along that went a long way with me. I had lots of 2E material and was distressed at 3E. But Adkison and Dancey said:

1) All your 2E fluff is still good; and
2) Here's a free conversion manual to help with the transition (so that even your 2E crunch could be converted

Both of these are absent in the 4E marketing. Also, any maybe I'm misremembering as well, but the attitude from Wizards back then was "we know this is really different, but please try it because we really think you will like it". And then, Tiamat and Bahamut appeared in Dragon magazine with their 3.0 stats - very cool!

Granted it's too early for any kind of conversion document, and they have already said that it's going to be nigh impossible to convert crunch from 3.x to 4e, I believe that MOST of the 3e fluf is still going to be good. I imagine that someone will do a 4e great wheel type model (though it would be awesome if WOTC would make the 3e great wheel open content), and other fluff changes are really quite minor when you look at them as a whole.

I am getting the impression that even though they haven't been able to say much yet because it's really too early -- we ARE still about 7-8 months away still -- they HAVE been saying "we know this is really different, but please try it because we really think you will like it".

I appreciate your concerns and this is the first really unemotional, rational, personal expression I have seen about why 4e is a sad turn for D&D from the perspective of a player.

I am still optimistic, and I hope the coming months can bring some people around.