D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[Rechan]

All I'm saying is that the disappointed customer might not take solace in the fact that the company that he has bought stuff from in the past and that has (in his eyes) left him behind will be financially better off from that move, and face a stable future customer base without him included in their further design decisions.

Why?

Why do you care what WotC does?

WotC is not D&D. D&D is rolling a d20 to kill an orc, is casting a fireball, is taking a Holy Avenger against a Beholder at your game table with your friends.

Clearly you're playing D&D.

So why do you give a damn what WotC does? How does a guy in Seattle making decisions about WotC change what you're doing at your game table? If you're playing 3.5, and you don't intend to change, then the guy in Seattle is nothing to you.

People act like WotC is a family member who's betrayed you. As if all those people who enjoyed Disney movies as a kid were stabbed in the gut with current decisions by Disney's board of directors and their recent movies.

 

[Rechan]

I'm not getting the 3e hate but I am getting the, "this game is so cool vibe." and without any actual information to back it up, I wish they'd stop until we have more mechanical information available.

Honestly, you know what I think?

Everyone at the WotC office has pretty much been living and breathing 4e for the last two years. They haven't been able to tell us. Lately they've been able to tell us that 4e exists, but they can't tell us anything else. They're living in a bubble where 4e exists and to them it's so cool, and so all they can do is say "This is cool" because they can't tell you anything more.

Avoiding too much in politics, there's an idea of a "Bubble" where everyone believes one reality, not hearing any sort of criticism or the fact that reality isn't the way they are.

Which isn't good. It's not really excusable. But I just don't think the designers are saying "THIS IS COOL" because they're trying to falsely hype it up. They've just got their heads so far into the 4e machine, they have to think it's cool.

 

[Greylock]

To be brutally honest, why should the opinions of these gamers even matter? I'm an active customer who still spends money on new WotC products. I intend to spend more money on 4e.

WotC should be listening to the opinions of gamers like me and making products that we want, not listening to the constant bitching and moaning from gamers who don't even buy their products.

This is why almost every single person I know in the real world has stopped visiting ENWorld, and thinks quite openly that I'm weird for trying to keep up on things here and there. Both folks who DM the group I play with joined ENWorld when it was still a Gamespy forum, and every time they read here they find some post like yours that discourages them even further from visiting here again.

hth

 

[Vigilance]

Well, basically that is one (of many potential) ways of shouting "Hey WotC, I was once your customer, but you're going in directions I don't want to go and producing stuff I don't like, so here I'm telling you you're losing my money! Care, dammit!"

I'm sure they care.

Caring, and being in a position to do something about it, are two different things.

Wizards decided to do 4e, in a firm and very real sense, years ago. They have decided now is the time to release it. They have decided on a general direction that they feel is best for the game overall.

These are not the sorts of decisions they're going to change now.

Several years in, its a little late.

They've made key decisions, they think they're good ones, and now its time for them to release the game and see how we respond.

What you're doing is the equivalent of going up the customer service desk and complaining about the announcement that a store will discontinue carrying brand A, and will instead carry brand B.

And if they don't bring back brand A, you're taking your business elsewhere.

Chances are, its too late to DO that.

Wizards can't put the genie back in the bottle, nor can they take 4e in a radically new direction.

I'm not sure what you want.

An apology?

Or do you really expect them to junk 3 years of work and start over, because some people on message boards are claiming they are going to stop supporting their company over a game they haven't played yet?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Why?

Why do you care what WotC does?

WotC is not D&D. D&D is rolling a d20 to kill an orc, is casting a fireball, is taking a Holy Avenger against a Beholder at your game table with your friends.

Clearly you're playing D&D.

So why do you give a damn what WotC does? How does a guy in Seattle making decisions about WotC change what you're doing at your game table? If you're playing 3.5, and you don't intend to change, then the guy in Seattle is nothing to you.

People act like WotC is a family member who's betrayed you. As if all those people who enjoyed Disney movies as a kid were stabbed in the gut with current decisions by Disney's board of directors and their recent movies.

Me? I don't really give much of a damn about what WotC is doing. I'm on this board, and in this forum especially, because I like to discuss D&D as a whole, which includes the direction it will be going in the future, and my opinions on that. If nothing else, it gives me a deeper understanding of some of the concepts of the games I'm playing, and makes me a better player/DM.

But what astounds me is that there are people who don't seem to get that there are players out there who have a bit more of an emotional investment with the firm that produced their main hobby for the last years, and hence not just look at their own game, but at how the decisions of that firm will impact their hobby of choice as a whole, and if they like it. That's all I'm trying to point out. Which ties into the next quote here...

I'm sure they care.

Caring, and being in a position to do something about it, are two different things.

Wizards decided to do 4e, in a firm and very real sense, years ago. They have decided now is the time to release it. They have decided on a general direction that they feel is best for the game overall.

These are not the sorts of decisions they're going to change now.

Several years in, its a little late.

They've made key decisions, they think they're good ones, and now its time for them to release the game and see how we respond.

What you're doing is the equivalent of going up the customer service desk and complaining about the announcement that a store will discontinue carrying brand A, and will instead carry brand B.

And if they don't bring back brand A, you're taking your business elsewhere.

Chances are, its too late to DO that.

Wizards can't put the genie back in the bottle, nor can they take 4e in a radically new direction.

I'm not sure what you want.

An apology?

Or do you really expect them to junk 3 years of work and start over, because some people on message boards are claiming they are going to stop supporting their company over a game they haven't played yet?

I don't want anything in particular...I've got my games of choice, and mostly enjoy them when I get to play them. I know what I want, and I'm pretty okay with letting D&D go in whatever direction it is being taken without going along if it doesn't suit me.

But you know why people got into an uproar over the fact that 4E was announced when the basic framework was already finished? Because indeed it WAS too late for those who are NOT okay with where it is going, and who maybe had hoped to be able to influence the way their game will look in its new incarnation. For them, WotC had not just ignored their desires, but blatantly showed them that they didn't care. In your example, it's as if the Customer Service guy tells you "Sorry, we cannot bring back the product you liked and used and spent a lot of money on, because the decision has been made. Had you told us your mind 2 years ago, we might have reconsidered some of the decisions." and you go "But you only announced that new product direction yesterday!" and get told "It's not our problem to keep our customers up-to-date on our developments, in fact it would only hurt sales if we had leaked it too soon."

So basically, a lot of people posting here DON'T feel like WotC cares even a single bit about them, and haven't given them the slightest chance to tell them how they would like the new edition to look, and they are angry about that. If that is a minority or not is not the point. This is a message board, and people come here to post their opinions on the ongoing re-imagining of D&D, and telling those who feel disappointed by where it goes and how WotC has handled the edition change to "shut up, why are you posting here anyway if you don't like how WotC is doing their business, you can't change anything by now anyway" is at the same time rude and ignorant. Trying to udnerstand and tolerate the opinions and emotions of a fellow gamer is a lot more constructive and leads to calmer discussions and more udnerstanding.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

To be brutally honest, why should the opinions of these gamers even matter? I'm an active customer who still spends money on new WotC products. I intend to spend more money on 4e.

WotC should be listening to the opinions of gamers like me and making products that we want, not listening to the constant bitching and moaning from gamers who don't even buy their products.

Ya think?

 

[Rechan]

But what astounds me is that there are people who don't seem to get that there are players out there who have a bit more of an emotional investment with the firm that produced their main hobby for the last years, and hence not just look at their own game, but at how the decisions of that firm will impact their hobby of choice as a whole, and if they like it. That's all I'm trying to point out. Which ties into the next quote here...

And what astounds me is that there are people who actually care about a company they no longer even by new products from, even if they use said old products.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

And what astounds me is that there are people who actually care about a company they no longer even by new products from, even if they use said old products.

Well, you know...you CAN be kicked to the curb by somebody and hence stop using that somebody's products, but still care for that somebody and be hurt by the whole process. Okay, maybe not you you, but general "you" can. And apparently, a lot of those yous are posting here. I think that is indeed what some people here called brand loyalty...or rather, disappointed brand loyalty.

Hey, there's weirder stuff people place tons of importance on.

 

[Rechan]

Well, you know...you CAN be kicked to the curb by somebody and hence stop using that somebody's products, but still care for that somebody and be hurt by the whole process. Okay, maybe not you you, but general "you" can. And apparently, a lot of those yous are posting here. I think that is indeed what some people here called brand loyalty...or rather, disappointed brand loyalty.

That's the thing.

A company can't "Kick you to the curb". They don't owe anything to you. They sell you a product. You anchoring any of your own emotional baggage to a company is your own problem, not theirs.

 

[Dragonblade]

The only problem is, listening to people voice their disappointment was ok after 4e was announced. Now we're two months later and the same people are still complaining about the same stuff.

We get your disappointment. You have conveyed it loud and clear. But its time to move on.

You are going to keep playing 3.5, then great. Go play it. Go post about it in a 3.5 forum.

But the self-righteous declarations of dislike for 4e or WotC are getting tiresome. So you don't buy WotC products anymore. You are a true martyr for the cause. What else do you want? A medal?