D&D 4E Paizo and 4e.

[Desdichado]

But what astounds me is that there are people who don't seem to get that there are players out there who have a bit more of an emotional investment with the firm that produced their main hobby for the last years, and hence not just look at their own game, but at how the decisions of that firm will impact their hobby of choice as a whole, and if they like it. That's all I'm trying to point out. Which ties into the next quote here...

Not only do I not get that... well, I don't even know if I get that or not, because I can't make heads or tails of that sentence. Think you could layer one more clause into it, by any chance?

But you know why people got into an uproar over the fact that 4E was announced when the basic framework was already finished? Because indeed it WAS too late for those who are NOT okay with where it is going, and who maybe had hoped to be able to influence the way their game will look in its new incarnation. For them, WotC had not just ignored their desires, but blatantly showed them that they didn't care. In your example, it's as if the Customer Service guy tells you "Sorry, we cannot bring back the product you liked and used and spent a lot of money on, because the decision has been made. Had you told us your mind 2 years ago, we might have reconsidered some of the decisions." and you go "But you only announced that new product direction yesterday!" and get told "It's not our problem to keep our customers up-to-date on our developments, in fact it would only hurt sales if we had leaked it too soon."

How is that different than any other industry? If you like a house paint color that's no longer in production, you can't go to your local Sherwin Williams store and just buy it, you'll have to find a close substitute. If you like 1967 Ford Mustangs, you have to buy a used one. Ford doesn't make 1967 model year Mustangs anymore. If you like a book or video game that's out of print, you have to buy it used. Tough luck, buddy. You know what else? Those companies don't ask their customer base for input either, except via market research. Which WotC has done.

So your complaint rings pretty hollow to me. It either shows an expectation of unreasonable entitlement, or a fundamental misunderstanding of how businesses actually work.

 

[catsclaw227]

Well, you know...you CAN be kicked to the curb by somebody and hence stop using that somebody's products, but still care for that somebody and be hurt by the whole process.

This sounds more like you broke up with your girlfriend.

A company doesn't kick people to the curb. I am growing a bit weary of the "WOTC is firing it's customers" analogy. Nothing I have seen reflects this attitude.

To stay within the "relationship problem" analogy, it sounds more like WOTC is saying:

"I have been making changes a lot in my life, and I want to always continue growing. I have come to a point that I need a change and I want you to share it with me. I know it will not feel the same, and I can't really talk about it, but if you trust me I feel confident that we can still have lots of fun together. I hope you can accept this change in me. I am not taking you away from your old friends, but its just time for me to make some changes. I hope you can come along for the ride with me, I really want you to."

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But you know why people got into an uproar over the fact that 4E was announced when the basic framework was already finished? Because indeed it WAS too late for those who are NOT okay with where it is going, and who maybe had hoped to be able to influence the way their game will look in its new incarnation. For them, WotC had not just ignored their desires, but blatantly showed them that they didn't care.

How many corporations announce a product and wait for their customers to give them ideas how they would like it too look like? Does Daimler post polls on its message boards with questions like "would you prefer a longer hood?" "Do you want 6 or 8 Cylinders?" "Do you want that we use Halogen Lamps from brand XYZ or we use Halogen Lamps from brand ABC?" "Do you want Leather seats being the only option?"

That's now how things work, and I also do not think that this is how it can work.

WotC took an other approach, they produced products with several variant rules, and looked at how much people picked the products up, and how they reacted to what they bought. I think this gives a lot of critical insight into it, without creating endless discussions about the pros and cons of a rule. It ensures that no vocal minorities become more important then the real majorities, because you can look at the pure sales figures to check wether something worked or not.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Wow...thanks for those answers. Seriously. They explain quite a lot about this hobby of mine, and the people who play it.

 

[Dragonblade]

Wow...thanks for those answers. Seriously. They explain quite a lot about this hobby of mine, and the people who play it.

Me too. It tells me that there will always be a subset of people who resist change and rage against it. A subset who embrace change and passionately support it, and that most people fall in the middle and are just along for the ride.

 

[DM_Jeff]

"I have been making changes a lot in my life, and I want to always continue growing. I have come to a point that I need a change and I want you to share it with me. I know it will not feel the same, and I can't really talk about it, but if you trust me I feel confident that we can still have lots of fun together. I hope you can accept this change in me. I am not taking you away from your old friends, but its just time for me to make some changes. I hope you can come along for the ride with me, I really want you to."

Wow. Catsclaw227 may I suggest you humbly report to WotC as head of marketing to replace whatever nutmunch they have now? If something like this was said at GenCon instead of "dewd, man, new game! Itz great! Yur current game, sucks, dewd! Um, grapple broken, man...um...uuhhh" I might have actually sat and patiently awaited 4E with an objective viewpoint than coming to the independent idea that 4E was pushed on WotC by the big "H" and that the designers are scrambling to do "what dad says" or they'll get in trouble. Oh well, hindsight and all that.

-DM Jeff

 

[catsclaw227]

I wish my first wife had said it to me instead of the pool guy.

j/k!

 

[francisca]

But what astounds me is that there are people who don't seem to get that there are players out there who have a bit more of an emotional investment with the firm that produced their main hobby for the last years, and hence not just look at their own game, but at how the decisions of that firm will impact their hobby of choice as a whole, and if they like it. That's all I'm trying to point out.

Oh, lots of people get it.

It is abundantly clear, with millions of lines of text on messageboards as evidence. Many have witnessed the fans of <insert favorite game with multiple revs> complaining about the new revision in game stores, at the gaming table, at cons, etc... I think all of us have done it at some point. However, coming off like a jilted lover is a bit over the top. When fandom becomes an emotional investment, well, thats just ...uh... spooky.

D&D is a game. Think the current edition sucks? Play an old one. Or, play a new one when it comes out. Or try another FRPG. But if an "emotional investment" in a game leads to histrionics, loss of sleep or other signs of stress, or strains friendships, there is only one thing to do: get over it.

 

[Desdichado]

Indeed. I can truthfully say that 3e (and to a lesser extent 3.5) have been a financial investment on my part. One that I haven't fully realized the benefits of yet. That's a reason why I'm reluctant to update at this time.

But it's not been an emotional investment in the least.

 

[francisca]

But it's not been an emotional investment in the least.

WHY DON'T U LOURVE OUR H0BB1E!!111!!!111eleven!!11!1