Pathfinder 1E Paizo Bites- A Rant

[Bendris Noulg]

Sometimes that does happen. More often than not, if you see a byline that says "Johnny NoTalent with Jack the Cleaner," it means Jack had to do so much work on Johnny's manuscript that he ended up with an author credit.

Hmmm... Alrighty, I guess I got three lines to watch for (Author, Developer, Editor) rather than one. It's good to see that a Dev can get the "bump up" when deserved, though.

It'll be in design until early June, so I wouldn't expect a peak until August maybe. We are trying to sort out some Black Company demos at GenCon, if you'll be there.

Kewl... I'll definately do my dang-doodle bestest to get there.

 

[Psion]

Paizo was absolutely within its rights to make any changes they deemed necessary. This is called "development" in the game industry and it happens all the time. I'll tell you right now that if Green Ronin didn't do development work on its manuscripts, we would not have the reputation for quality that we now enjoy. Developers are the unsung heroes of the game industry.

I thought I would bold-and-repeat this because lots of people miss this.

I don't really think a lot of people understand how much poorer the quality of many d20 products would be if there wasn't content editing. I say this having sat in the position of editing an e-zine for a bit, and knowing a few examples of the evolution of some articles and d20 products, and seeing some d20 publisher's quality shoot up as soon as they hired mechanics editors, and it's obvious to me that work by even people who are conversant with the system isn't golden right out of the typewriter.

If you think that developers and content editors don't help make d20 products as good as they are today, you really don't understand what is going on. I don't want to live in the world BelenUmeria proposes, where the likes of Nightshift games would be the norm for d20 publishers.

 

[Monte At Home]

It has always been a truism that if a product is good, the designer gets the credit, and if it's bad the editor gets the blame.

Ironically, it's editors (who are sometimes called developers--the lines blur from company to company) who can make or break a product. Any designer who says he doesn't need an editor (and there are some) is fooling himself. Or is just a fool. There isn't ANYONE in the world who can write something that can't be improved with the eye of a good editor. Finding good editors is the real trick.

I wouldn't even know where to begin to tell you how much better Malhavoc products are with Sue at the helm as the editor. I was very happy to see her get the editing award from Pen&Paper. I wish there were more editor awards out there.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I wouldn't even know where to begin to tell you how much better Malhavoc products are with Sue at the helm as the editor.

Doesn't she also techie the web site? I remember contacting her for a banner once. Then again, I think I recall her name on a few PS products...

That's a busy girl...

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

A question?

Hello all,

This has been a very informative thread. Stuff I didn't know about the industry.

But I do have a question. For those in the know, has it always been 'work-for-hire'? Take Dragon around the 100's range and the articles presented therein.

Is it just that 'work-for-hire' is the way things are done now or has it always been this way?

Thanks,

Son of Thunder

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

Just checked my Dragon submission guidelines!

Hey,

I just checked my Dragon submission guidelines and sure enough it says that it wants the author to make things fit, even if right off hand it doesn't seem so.

I assumed Mr. Noonan knew what the submission guidelines were.

Man, I love the internet and ENWorld. It has burst so many preconceptions I had about wanting to be a game designer

Son of Thunder

 

[Richards]

Originally Posted by Pramas
Sometimes that does happen. More often than not, if you see a byline that says "Johnny NoTalent with Jack the Cleaner," it means Jack had to do so much work on Johnny's manuscript that he ended up with an author credit.

Gosh, my "I Scry" article was in issue #319, and lo and behold Matthew Sernett was given co-author credit. In this case, it was a matter of him grafting on some scrying/anti-scrying devices of his own to the article, while pretty much leaving what I had written alone. I hope this doesn't mean I'm a "Johnny NoTalent."

Johnathan

 

[FraserRonald]

Alright, you didn't miss my point, but this is the first reply that actually reads like you're addressing it.

Well, I apologize for that, but I thought I was pretty clear when I wrote:

One can attempt to negotiate to maintain one's rights to the work, selling only publishing rights, but--at least at my level of name recognition--good luck with that.

So, in the end, I understand my rights, I understand what I am selling and what can happen to it, and I am at peace with that.

And when I later said:

For me, the basic concept is: if I sign the contract, I take full responsibility for any bad stuff that happens because I sold my rights. Sure it'd be nice for the publisher to call me and obtain my permission to make alterations. In that case, put it in the contract. And if the publisher says they aren't willing to accept that alteration?

All I'm saying is that if one signs a contract that gives the publisher complete rights to one's work, one cannot then complain if said publisher exercises those rights.

At the very least, it does come down to the post I made in the "Culture" thread: It's now time for me to pay as much attention to editors as I do to authors, especially since I've likely written off a number of writers because of poor design work that wasn't credited to the actual hack that wrote it.

Actually, I think there are a few things that one should consider when purchasing products and you've hit one of the nails on the head with editor. I would also suggest that if there is a company that consistently puts out work you appreciate, most of the time, they are a safe bet (unless there's been a personnel shake-up!)

(BTW, is The Postman better as a book? The movie had a decent premise but did little for me as a film...)

Yes, much better. If I still had my copy, I'd lend it to you, but I lent it to someone else and it went the way of many lent books.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Well, I apologize for that, but I thought I was pretty clear when I wrote:

<Earlier Quote>

And when I later said:

<Earlier Quote>

Actually, each of those indicate that you have no problem with an editor/developer changing your material, which was loud and clear considering the number of times you posted it . None of them, however, directly answered the question asked, being how you felt about your name being associated with said editor's/developer's material, which may or may not be well received by the consumers (with the risk being that it may not be well received as is the case with the Noonan/Paizo Dark Sun conversion).

You did get around to it, though...

Eventually.

Actually, I think there are a few things that one should consider when purchasing products and you've hit one of the nails on the head with editor. I would also suggest that if there is a company that consistently puts out work you appreciate, most of the time, they are a safe bet (unless there's been a personnel shake-up!)

True. Although there is sometimes a sliding scale; one company is definately rated by author more than anything else, although one of those authors has his own scale (adventures poor, rules/accessories high). Overall, though, you are right; while no company has my 100% assurance, there are a few that I'll call 95-Percenters, being 95% sure that I'll like the product so long as the subject matter appeals to me. (And it kinda makes me laugh that WotC isn't amongst them...)

Yes, much better. If I still had my copy, I'd lend it to you, but I lent it to someone else and it went the way of many lent books.

Lost many a book that way myself... You'd be amazed how many folks simply refuse to return The Black Company or The Forever War. I'll dig up a copy, though, seeing as both you and S'mon have suggested it.

(PS: S'mon, document received... A bit to digest. I'll probably be sending you a few questions regarding the meaning of some legal terms for better understanding, though, being neither a lawyer nor living on your side of the pond.)

 

[SemperJase]

I became disenchanted by the entire RPG industry (not the game, the business practices) during my tenure as a writer. I decided that I was not willing to work in a system that shows little loyalty to its writers'.

It sounds to me, you have unrealistic expectations and are confusing ethical with unethical practices (see below).

Loyalty for work-for-hire begins with signing the contract and ends with payment. After that specific contract is fulfilled, there is no more obligation on the part of the publisher.

in one case, once the freelance work had been rewritten, the guy got paid only for the original words that remained.

Ethical: If that was in the contract, it is an ethical practice. You clearly don't like the practice and infer Paizo shouldn't do it. Is this Paizo's practice? Is it reasonable to fault Paizo for your former employer's actions?

In the end, I quit just before they sold their entire body of work to another publisher. The only person that received a dime for the guy who started the company. No one else was able to receive any money for their creative work because they had signed contracts that said they would be paid upon publication only.

Now, I have seen some of the body of work in print since. The publisher felt no need to put the authors names in it, although the name of the guy who sold the company did appear.

Unethical: If the work was used, the writer deserves compensation. I question whether the owner of the company had rights to sell the material to another publisher. Since the new publisher didn't credit the original author, it seems likely the owner of the company you worked for represented the work as his own. I bet the writers would have a legal case against both the owner and the new publisher. Did the writers know?

The event you describe is not an example of a corrupt RPG industry. It is an example of one man's unethical conduct.

Maybe that is a large part of the reason why I am offended for Mr. Noonen.

You're mad at Paizo because your former employer ripped off some other writers? Even when David Noonan says Paizo had the right to make the changes, and was presumably compensated in full according to his contract?
I don't see the connection.

I do know that working for a non-profit society who publishes their own publications has shown me that authors can get respect, which is why I left in the first place. I was unwilling to work in an industry where I could not get the same treatment I allowed others.

The industry insiders that post here indicate that your former employer is not representative of the entire industry. I applaud you for standing up for what you believe. I don't think you are standing up to the right people.