Pathfinder 1E Paizo Bites- A Rant

[Umbran]

Again, this could have been achieved by keeping the original article and adding optional rules.

And thereby making the article even longer, squeezing out other content or advertising. Editing must take overall length into account.

The game should not fit the rules, the rules should fit the game.

It isn't quite so flat as all that. When you're a DM, yes, the game rules should be built to fit the flavor you want in the campaign. However, when you are the publisher of both the core game rules and the campaign setting, you have other fish to fry. You have to consider how to sell more of both the setting and the core rules. When you are the publisher, there may be something good in altering the campaign setting slightly to be more similar to the core rules you expect most players use.

 

[barsoomcore]

Maybe somebody can go into a little more detail on "work-for-hire" agreements. My understanding is that if David Noonan wrote the article under such an agreement, then Paizo does not in fact have any legal obligation to do anything with regards to how they treat the material after he submits it. He never possessed the copyright, so he can't have sold it. He never was the owner of the material or the intellectual property it represents. Putting his name on it is a courtesy of Paizo's that they don't necessarily have to do (except as the contract in question may stipulate).

As FR points out, this is not at all a similar case to a novel publication or a short story in most magazines -- where the writer is NOT selling the copyright, even, they are selling the RIGHT to publish the material (usually under very specific terms such as "first serial rights" or whatever). Copyright remains with the writer in all cases, and indeed is usually printed as such in the text.

Now my understanding is probably flawed but I don't believe that most of the issues people have been bringing up are applicable to this situation. Work-for-hire agreements are designed to remove the many barriers that copyright laws present publishers.

It may be polite to contact the writer ahead of time, or good business practice, but I don't think it's law.

 

[WayneLigon]

Sounds like it just came down to a deadline issue. If there's not enough time to resolve a problem and you've already laid out the pages and have those column inches ready and you've paid for the specific art... you go with what you have.

 

[Ranger REG]

If it's a work-for-hire contract, then once David Noonan got paid for his work (usually by dime per word), that work becomes the property of Paizo (sans trademarks which belongs to WotC).

If that is the case, they can pretty much do what they want with it.

BTW, I haven't gone through all of pages of this thread, but has the editor of Paizo's Dark Sun Player's Handbook responded?

 

[Guillaume]

If it's a work-for-hire contract, then once David Noonan got paid for his work (usually by dime per word), that work becomes the property of Paizo (sans trademarks which belongs to WotC).

If that is the case, they can pretty much do what they want with it.

BTW, I haven't gone through all of pages of this thread, but has the editor of Paizo's Dark Sun Player's Handbook responded?

Yes he did, a few replies up. Basically, from what I understood, he maintains that they tried to preserve a maximum a compatibility with 3e and tried not to reprint rules already present in the core books. As for notification, basically, it was a deadline issue.

 

[Ranger REG]

I thought that Erik Mona is the editor of Paizo's Dark Sun. Forgive me since I have not yet picked up my Dragon, but I do know that Erik Mona is responsible for editing Dark Sun Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, and a Dark Sun adventures in Dungeon magazine.

So why all the hate against Erik Mona?

 

[Wasgo]

I thought that Erik Mona is the editor of Paizo's Dark Sun. Forgive me since I have not yet picked up my Dragon, but I do know that Erik Mona is responsible for editing Dark Sun Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, and a Dark Sun adventures in Dungeon magazine.

So why all the hate against Erik Mona?

Keep in mind Dark Sun was split between Dungeon Magazine and Dragon Magazine. Even with crossovers, they have seperate editors. Erik Mona is in the clear!

 

[Ranger REG]

Okay, although not wanting to sidetrack the lynching of Matthew Sernett...

Is there something you dislike in Erik Mona's editing of Dark Sun in his Dungeon magazine? Is there something that David Noonan disagree with the treatment of his three works (the DMG, Monsters, and adventure)?

 

[barsoomcore]

Considering the gimme-gimme attitude frequently found amongst gamers (12 out of 12 in Williamsburg Virginia!), this makes it hard for the GM that wants to "preserve" the actual game-world environment of Dark Sun to convince players to accept those changes because they have a psuedo-official article (which is probably best described as a bastardization of the original author's work) that says otherwise.

These clowns obviously would never have played the original version of Dark Sun anyway, so what do you care? I don't buy this argument at all.

First, the people you described would, by their own description, never have played Dark Sun in any form that did not adhere to the Core Rulebooks. So you're dead in the water right there.

Second, the people you described would not be any fun to play with, so why are you sorry you couldn't play with them?

Third, anyone who tries to use some external source to try and "beat" the DM on setting rules obviously doesn't want to play the game -- they want to engage in power struggles with their DM. They're not being encouraged by any sort of publication; they're just jerks.

Why would you want to convince jerks that aren't going to be fun to play with to play with you, anyway?

 

[Pramas]

Paizo was absolutely within its rights to make any changes they deemed necessary. This is called "development" in the game industry and it happens all the time. I'll tell you right now that if Green Ronin didn't do development work on its manuscripts, we would not have the reputation for quality that we now enjoy. Developers are the unsung heroes of the game industry.

It gets a bit confusing because the line between editors and developers can be hazy. Some companies have seperate editors and developers (that's how we do it most of the time) while others have one person do both jobs (which seems to be the Paizo model). When you see an editing credit in many RPG books, what it really means is editing and development. Like anything else in game design, development can be second guessed, but Matt was just doing his job here. The idea that his course of action was wrong, or worse immoral, is ludicrous.

You may disagree with his specific choices, but they were his choices to make.