Pathfinder 1E Paizo Bites- A Rant

[wingsandsword]

I think the real problem is that there is no perfect solution.

The Dark Sun conversion that would have pleased the dyed-in-the-wool 2e AD&D Dark Sun fans would have rewritten every base class, every race, had plenty of new spells and psionics, and a score of new prestige classes (including Athasian Dragon, Evangieon, and 4 Clerical Elementals as Epic Transformational prestige classes). Change around all the equipment tables, and revamp magic items, while removing and restricting lots of spells and classes.

In short, it would have almost required a whole new Player's Handbook from scratch. As a separate d20 game, licensed out to a 3rd party like Ravenloft was, it could have been done. It couldn't have been done in the confines of a short magazine article. The Dragon/Polyhedron articles were just enough to convey some basic concepts of the setting, without getting bogged down in making sure everything from 2e Dark Sun is ported over.

Whatever could be fit into the page count available for Dragon/Polyhedron couldn't be everything everyone wanted. Then add in the fact that this version would be so steeped in the lore, metaplot, and considerations of 2e Dark Sun that a newbie would be lost, or possibly turned away at the complexity and seemingly arbitrarily restrictions (No Monks, Paladins or Sorcerers, no Bardic Magic, no half-orcs or gnomes, other races and classes heavily changed). For a "D&D" setting, it would really seem forbidding and possibly disheartening to a newbie.

I've already seen hardcore Dark Sun fans offline engage in some rants that probably shouldn't be reposted online. Suffice it to say he prefers the athas.org version. However, as one who was only vaguely aware of the setting and knew the basic concepts, it had everything I was expecting: Elemental Clerics, Templars, Dragon Kings, Preservers & Defilers, Half Giants, Muls, Roguish Runner Elves, Cannibalistic Halflings, Everyone's got Psionic powers, Muls, Thri-Kreen, Paranoid Druids, wooden/bone/obsidian weapons, Insanely high temperatures. It was all there. Some things weren't exactly how I expected it, but it was close enough for a casual enthusiast.

I didn't get anywhere this bent out of shape when my personal favorite discontinued setting got a limited write up (Dark*Matter). Sure I would have loved a much bigger and more detailed treatment, with more crunch (since I already had the fluff, those old Dark*Matter books were great for setting stuff), but I just used the Polyhedron version as a suppliment to the d20 Modern Dark Matter game I was already running and the conversion stuff I whipped up myself. If you don't like the Paizo version, go to athas.org, and scavenge Dungeon/Polyhedron for anything new you see and like.

 

[irdeggman]

The one thing that I think is being largely overlooked is that before this series of articles in Dungeon and Dragon magazine, Darksun was a dead setting. I know that Darksun has a large fan base and there has been a demand by a certain portion of the gaming community to bring it back in some form. Paizo stepped up to the plate and they made this happen. Now that they've done this service for the gamers who have so badly wanted it, they're being publicly lynched because it wasn't done the way they expected. Honestly, I don't feel that this is being fair to the staff who dedicate themselves to serving the needs of the gaming community month in and month out, often giving people their first published credits in the gaming industry.

Actually much of the 'issues' expressed concern the fact that the fans themselves had already done this (see athas.org) and saw their work (taking over 3 years to accomplish and also "Official") to suddenly be superceded by a space consideration/deadline influenced set of articles that due to the way the magazines' profit margin is maintainted can not be supported by continual updates/errata/ etc.

 

[Mach2.5]

Now that they've done this service for the gamers who have so badly wanted it, they're being publicly lynched because it wasn't done the way they expected

Hmm, I don't recall asking for it. My game was running just fine with the 3.5 rules at Athas.org. As I posted on the WOTC boards, if its not broken, don't fix it. Just seems like the whole shebang was to promote the PsiH in sales by reinventing the revised wheel. While I don't see anything inheirently wrong by the move, it also was something unneccessary that I rather thought would end up causing a big ruckus like this. Shame at that, really.

It used the rules engine, but isn't it 2e-unfriendly?

Wow, now that's really an attempt at over analysing something beyond what is neccessary. FR had its own races, so did Dragonlance. Heck, DL even started the trend of having setting specific classes outside of the core rules (for TSR at least) and a revamping of the thematics of spellcasting. DS didn't do anything really all that different rules wise. It had unique races outside of the core rules (but name one setting at the time that didn't), unique classes outside of the core rules (once again, nothing new here), a twist on spellcasting (done in at least 3 or four major TSR settings), etc. A few new rules about patchwork armor, heat effects, weapon breakage, but nothing so drastic that it was hammered into the 2e core rules.

It was the themes of DS that were very different from your typical fantasy setting, not the rules structure. Sorry, just found the statements to be a little 'over reaching'. Unless of course you consider Spelljammer, Birthright, and Planescape to also be 2e unfriendly settings (also a nitpick of the term unfriendly, since its quite subjective and open to interperatation in the end).

 

[hong]

So, yes, I do believe Belen's got a valid point; It's not a matter of how it effects his game, but rather presents a picture of Dark Sun that is completely false.

It is rather hard to see how a picture of a fictional world can be "false" in the first place.

Considering the gimme-gimme attitude frequently found amongst gamers (12 out of 12 in Williamsburg Virginia!),

You know, if I were to speak to 12 random gamers, and find that all 12, without exception, clashed with my playing style, I might be forced to consider the possibility that _I_ was the one with the attitude problem, not them.

But that's just me.

 

[diaglo]

I think it's always important to realize that messageboards are often cluttered with extremely rude posts made by people who write things they would never actually say to a person.

and some posters like me say exactly what they mean. i won't type it on a message board if i wouldn't say it in face to face conversation.

edit: heck face to face i don't have to contend with Eric's Grandma.

 

[Belen]

Jasper translates with his babel fish ...
Hi since I have specfic knowledge in ONE specfic field aka science editing, I now know how to tell them there other editors in totally unrelated fields how to do their jobs..

Yea yea yea me.
end of translation.

Just because you have total xp in one field does not give full multiclassing privilieges to the other field.
Thank you move along and try just plain water.

I was also a d20 staff writer and EDITOR for 18 months.

Next please.

 

[diaglo]

I do have a question: Did Paizo give Dave the option of removing his name from the altered work?

so i still haven't seen an answer to this question. bueller????

 

[Belen]

First let me speak to the concerns about magazine production noted above. Posting a complaint on ENWorld about an issue being misprinted is not an effective way to communicate with Paizo. When you receive an issue that is misprinted, poorly cut, or badly bound, please contact our customer service. They’ll ask you to mail the issue to us so we can replace it; they’ll also add an issue onto your subscription. We need the physical copies of the issue so that we can give them to our printers and figure out how to prevent such problems.

As editors of Dragon and Dungeon, we also have the task of developing articles. Wizards of the Coast has a development department that makes changes to the work written by both in-house and out-of-house authors. On the magazine, we have a smaller staff and have to wear both hats. All of our editors are also designers. Check out our credentials on www.pen-paper.net.

We developed Dark Sun to suit 3rd edition, not to stick to all the various constraints and design philosophies of 2nd edition Dark Sun. First and foremost, Dragon serves the wider D&D audience, and a series of articles that occupies roughly 30% of the magazine must be easily accessible to that audience. The “What Has Gone Before” section of the first article specifically states that the articles use material from the Expanded Psionics Handbook (ala the half-giant) and are set 300 years in the future of the setting. Setting the articles far in the future was David Noonan’s idea, which we wholeheartedly supported as a means to explain the changes the articles presented. That section also notes that what happens in the setting is up to you.

People have noted concerns about many changes made to the setting. Please understand that we did not in development or editing change many of the details some folk have complained about. The principal concerns (sorcerers, monks, paladins, bardic spellcasting) were changes made by us to suit 3rd edition as I noted above. The descriptive text for those classes goes a long way toward explaining how they could be included in Dark Sun, why they might not have been encountered before, and how easy it would be for a DM to ignore those elements. While we understood the reason why paladins were not included in the original setting, it seemed better to err on the side of inclusion as not all areas of Dark Sun are so harsh that you must kill a stranger (or your friend) for water. The much berated text that about sorcerers hiding as wizards comes after text about them usually disguising themselves as psions and notes that very brave sorcerers hide as wizards because of the freedom wizards have to operate around Tyr. The inclusion of monks necessitated changes to armor and weaponry, and the extra steps required to use the breakage rules added complication that we felt most players would not like. The weapon’s weakness are inherent in their materials, and DMs control both wealth in the campaign and what equipment is available. Lastly, heat dangers are described in the DMG, and it’s our general design philosophy not to change basic D&D rules. If a DM wants them to be more dangerous, it’s a simple matter to make it hotter. We would have discussed all these issues with David, but deadline constraints prevented us from doing so.

In the future, if you have comments about any article in Dragon, we’d love to get an email to scalemail@paizo.com. It’s the best way to give the magazine feedback. As yet, we’ve gotten only two emails about Dark Sun (both positive).

Thanks
Matthew Sernett
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon

Matt,

You just highlighted the very reasons why those changes should NOT have been made. Basically, you are saying that 3e is not 3e unless you have Paladins and Sorcerers? Also, how do you know those changes will fit the broadest audience? Did Paizo do a lot of market research on DS before making those changes?

This is a problem with 3e in general. The entire rules set has been min/max'd. Maximize options for player benefit, minimize restrictions. Yes, the DMG gives lip service to rule Zero, but WOTC has done everything in its power to imply that rule zero does not/ should not exist.

However, the rules set can be a restriction itself. Can players still come up with interesting ways to defeat monsters? Not until they have spent time looking for the rule that covers it.

The implied nature of 3e says that rules trump flavor. And this implied nature has been built into all the players that started with 3e.

What you have just told me is that Dragon and Paizo does not want to challenge players. Paizo does not want to push the envelope on game design or take risks. A risk may garner great rewards, but you are all afraid of failing.

Is this why we do not see exciting issues any longer? Is this why Dragon has become a simple rules mag?

What you have said is that restricting classes was a risk. You'd rather be inclusive than challenge the players. You do not feel that the environment should be truly dangerous for players because monster fighting is the real goal of DnD. Flavor is secondary to the rules and should not play a large part in a DnD campaign world......

Hope that makes sense.

I do appreciate your post, but I am disapointed by the implied culture at Paizo.

 

[SoulsFury]

Do you people really believe Dragon magazine didn't have time to contact the man? Lets see:

Editor: "Hmm, I changed the article alot." Editor highlights the changed article with his mouse (I'm sure the article is somewhere on a computer) and promptly hits ctrl+C. Then he opens up his mail program, his ctrl+v and types in the writers email address. The Editor picks up the phone and promply dials cell phone #1-555-555-5555. "Hi, this is the Editor of Dragon Magazine. I had to alter your work for it to see publication. I have just emailed you the new copy. I will be doing page layout when I enter the office in the morning so I need an answer if you'd like your name put on the article by the time I check my office mail at 8 AM Pacific time."

Do you really think they did the page layout and the changes to the article on the same day and have the whole magazine finished where nothing could be changed (Even if the only thing they changed was the mans name)?

IMO, Dragon had a moral obligation to the writer to ask him if he would like to keep his name on a work that was no longer his. There was time for them to do it. The above conversation would have taken no more than 5 minutes to take place, and thats having to look up the email address and phone number, which they should keep on record. I do agree that they did have a right to change the article.

For those of you who don't like the changes, do something about it. I stopped my Dragon & Dungeon subscriptions back when they first added Polyhedron to Dungeon and I won't buy another of either publication until Polyhedron takes up 10 or less pages in each issue.

Nik

 

[WizarDru]

I was also a d20 staff writer and EDITOR for 18 months.

So why does your experience and expectations seem so different from Dave Noonan's, Monte Cook's, Chris Pramas', Matthew Sernet, Darrin Drader's and others? They seem to have a much different idea about work-for-hire contracts and the publishing end of the business than you do. I don't think the ad hominem attack on you was justified or correct, but it does seem that you have different ideas about the business than virtually all the other published authors who've commented so far.