Pathfinder 1E [Paizo] Dragon #317

[Arnwyn]

TWO: It was UNOFFICIAL! As in it was not created nor backed up by WotC. The one in Dragon Magazine is 100% official D&D true core ninja.

Here we go again... *sigh*

 

[Razz]

Here we go again... *sigh*

So what if I am one of those D&D players that only buy WotC made products. If anything, that should make WotC happy! Besides, I don't see any good reasons to use non-WotC material.

There are many reasons I play with WotC-official stuff...it far outweighs the one reason for me to bother with d20 products (that reason being they cover stuff WotC hasn't done yet or never will).

Besides, I didn't like the Rokugan ninja. It was missing too many abilities it should have had.

Hopefully, Jesse Decker did the Wotc-official ninja core class at least a lot closer to a basic ninja than the Rokugan one ever did.

 

[Tenbones]

So what if I am one of those D&D players that only buy WotC made products. If anything, that should make WotC happy! Besides, I don't see any good reasons to use non-WotC material.

It's not that you don't see. It's that you choose not to see. Plenty of d20 companies are doing d20 *better* than WotC. Green Ronin, Malhavoc, Bastion, and arguably AEG, and even Mongoose. While not every item coming from these companies is stellar, and groundbreaking, they generally have high quality (I said GENERALLY) products that can easily compete with WotC produced products. It bears notice that most of these companies are headed by people that *designed* D&D 3.0. Not to take anything away from WotC, the value of the d20 system is based on what people do with it. The fact that WotC supports mainly its core books through the OGL and d20 license is proof that they know, and intend, on other companies to do innovative things with their system (so WotC can obviously profit from it.) even if they do it better.

You tell me if that's a good reason. I think it is.

There are many reasons I play with WotC-official stuff...it far outweighs the one reason for me to bother with d20 products (that reason being they cover stuff WotC hasn't done yet or never will).

Besides, I didn't like the Rokugan ninja. It was missing too many abilities it should have had..

Actually, most d20 books out there make items to enhance your D&D game. OGL games are the ones which use modified d20 rules but are still fully adaptable to core 3.0/3.5 system (usually). I think this is a case of exclusion rather than inclusion. The designers at WotC are normal people like anyone else. Just because they create rules does not mean that is the *best* or *only* way to do something. Rules that lack something that other's are willing to fulfill through modifications to the ruleset are a needed commodity, it's how game systems evolve. Inclusion of these modified rules can only be good as long as the DM is judicious about what he wants in his game and what he doesn't. Otherwise why play 3.0 at all, why not just use the old D&D red boxed set. Sounds extreme, but so is your view towards non-WotC products.

As for the ninja class... there are few people that really understand the history of the ninja. So while you're certainly entitled to have your opinion, I thought the Rokugan ninja was a good example of the genin. There are various combinations of classes that could portray the chunin and jonin, but as a core class, the Rokugan ninja comes close to fulfilling the conceptual idea behind the role with a speck of historical fantasy tossed in. That aside, the Rogue core class is still as powerful. Compare them and you'll see.

Hopefully, Jesse Decker did the Wotc-official ninja core class at least a lot closer to a basic ninja than the Rokugan one ever did.

I have faith in Jesse. He's did a fine job at Dragon while he was at the helm. As to what a "basic ninja" is... that's an argument for another thread.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It also says that psions still have to pick a discipline and certain powers are only available to psions of certain disciplines. All psion use the same ability score as their primary score no matter what discipline they choose. It's looking pretty good.

There was some confusion about this on the WotC boards. Psions do not physical ability scores for this anymore, according to Bruce Cordell's email.

PS Hide in Plain Sight is way too powerful to be handing out to ninja PrCs. I'm glad WotC didn't try to break that PrC. Believe it or not, OA and the PsiH were not deliberately designed to be more powerful than the core rules (although both had their balance missteps).

 

[Razz]

It's not that you don't see. It's that you choose not to see. Plenty of d20 companies are doing d20 *better* than WotC. Green Ronin, Malhavoc, Bastion, and arguably AEG, and even Mongoose. While not every item coming from these companies is stellar, and groundbreaking, they generally have high quality (I said GENERALLY) products that can easily compete with WotC produced products. It bears notice that most of these companies are headed by people that *designed* D&D 3.0. Not to take anything away from WotC, the value of the d20 system is based on what people do with it. The fact that WotC supports mainly its core books through the OGL and d20 license is proof that they know, and intend, on other companies to do innovative things with their system (so WotC can obviously profit from it.) even if they do it better.

You tell me if that's a good reason. I think it is.

Actually, most d20 books out there make items to enhance your D&D game. OGL games are the ones which use modified d20 rules but are still fully adaptable to core 3.0/3.5 system (usually). I think this is a case of exclusion rather than inclusion. The designers at WotC are normal people like anyone else. Just because they create rules does not mean that is the *best* or *only* way to do something. Rules that lack something that other's are willing to fulfill through modifications to the ruleset are a needed commodity, it's how game systems evolve. Inclusion of these modified rules can only be good as long as the DM is judicious about what he wants in his game and what he doesn't. Otherwise why play 3.0 at all, why not just use the old D&D red boxed set. Sounds extreme, but so is your view towards non-WotC products.

I have tried buying d20 products. I'll even name a few:

A few d20 RAVENLOFT books
A few d20 Rokugan books
Jade Dragons and Hungry Ghosts by Green Ronin
Dragons by AEG
Necromancers (forgot what company wrote it)

And wanna know how I felt? I tried using them but I just couldn't continue to any longer. They weren't supported, I had questions with the Dragons book and they gave me crap answers, the Necromancer book felt unofficial, the Ravenloft books were horrible because it didn't have the same Ravenloft-feeling it used to have back in 2E (when all the worlds were connected, not hidden by corporate politics), and the d20 Rokugan books just angered me because they were all for Rokugan and none for Kara-Tur and were not supported (did not have epic-level play, for one).

It seems with everything I would like to have, WotC has it and can support it. D20 companies don't, all they do is ADD useless material that I can either wait for WotC to add or try and add them myself.

I am not one to bash things before trying them. I have tried using d20 third party products, as explained above, but it just wasn't working out. My players didnt like it either, they have the same "If it isn't WotC, then it isn't allowed in the campaign" type attitude as well.

 

[dagger]

A ninja core class! OH MY GOD! The Lady of Pain is going down my brothers!

 

[Arnwyn]

the Necromancer book felt unofficial,

I have no idea what this means...

and the d20 Rokugan books just angered me because they were all for Rokugan

Wow! Go figure!

and none for Kara-Tur and were not supported

You must hate WotC's OA, then, since Kara-Tur wasn't supported there, either... but, wait, it's a WotC book! But there's no support! But it's WotC! But...

(did not have epic-level play, for one).

Actually, let me know when there's more support for epic-play from WotC...

While I (personally) think most of your reasoning is completely out-to-lunch, I will note that I can't really bash you for your likes and dislikes - if you don't like something, you don't like something. Nothing wrong with that. (Maybe your reasoning is valid, but it's just difficult to communicate over a messageboard medium?)

(And I do believe that some of your criticisms of some of the products have merit - especially AEG's Dragons and the new Ravenloft stuff.)


Edit: typo.

 

[Ranger REG]

Do you see what I see!?!?!

A NINJA CORE CLASS! FINALLY!!!

A NINJA core class! YEAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Then again, it could suck like the Complete Warrior Samurai.

 

[Ranger REG]

TWO: It was UNOFFICIAL! As in it was not created nor backed up by WotC. The one in Dragon Magazine is 100% official D&D true core ninja.

How do you know that? AFAIC, Jesse Decker did not do the Ninja class on behalf of Wizards R&D, just on his off-hours. It's the same with anybody who wants to write a magazine article or adventure, it's not part of Wizards of the Coast job description.

Not something stupid AEG cooked up. I've always hated AEG material only because they robbed us of all the D&D Oriental stuff, and we have no more Oriental material anymore, now Rokugan has it all.

"Robbed us"?!?!!!

Dude, if anyone who is at fault here, it's Wizards. They CHOSE to put Rokugan in Oriental Adventures, even when they willingly sold the L5R/Rokugan IP to AEG. They CHOSE not to compete with AEG when they could via Kara-Tur. They CHOSE not to do anything Asian other than a few scattered Dragon magazine articles over the past three years. It's all Wizards.

 

[jasamcarl]

If you think his performance in this thread is ridiculous, you should see Razz in the Wotc boards. He must be under 18, otherwise the dumb sense of entitlement completly knocks me for a loop.