Pathfinder 1E Paizo no longer publishing Dungeon and Dragon

[Edena_of_Neith]

I take a darker, more pessimistic approach than most of you. I think it is the end, basically. The end.

Dragon Magazine, in the form of The Strategic Review, actually pre-dates Dungeons and Dragons. It has always been the core magazine of roleplaying along the Dungeons and Dragons lines (other magazines cover White Wolf and Warhammer games, etc.) It's been the core since the early 1970s, the core of the entire Hobby of D&D since it's inception.
If Dragon Magazine can no longer be maintained, in my eyes that signifies there is no longer enough money left in this part of the Hobby to maintain even the core product.

Someone asked 'what's next?' The next thing to go will be GenCon.

It's over.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

WotC should've announced their stuff today. Or beforehand, before the cancellation was made public, then people would've catched on, they'd seen the appeal of the new format. This way, they'll rather think of "OMG! You killed Dragon!". Then I've given them a chance, yeah.

Couldn't agree more. And the "we don't want to detract from Dragon/Dungeon" line really sounds disingenuous to me- as if suddenly everyone will see what WotC has planned and immediately cancel their subscriptions, or not buy any of the magazines, or read them, or continue to discuss them online, as they salivate and stare cockeyed at the screen waiting for September to roll around.

 

[Nightfall]

Edena,

Gee... And here I thought I was the most pessimistic poster of the day. Thanks for making me seem otherwise Edena.

Drew,

Actually the only thing I might get in September is a car. Doubtful it will be any WotC product.

Well maybe Rob's but that's about it.

 

[Agamon]

Couldn't agree more. And the "we don't want to detract from Dragon/Dungeon" line really sounds disingenuous to me- as if suddenly everyone will see what WotC has planned and immediately cancel their subscriptions, or not buy any of the magazines, or read them, or continue to discuss them online, as they salivate and stare cockeyed at the screen waiting for September to roll around.

No doubt. I tried to read all the quotes, but even if the writers were being genuine, it came across as very corny and staged, a save-face PR move. I rolled my eyes and moved on.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Yes indeed. WotC actually extended our license so that we could finish the Savage Tide as we had planned, ending up with issue #150. And hoo-boy... those last few adventures are going to be CRAZY awesome!

Just out of curiosity, has anything changed as a result of the announcement? Maybe the eyes of the monitors over there aren't quite as finicky, letting you do some really big things that might not otherwise have taken place?

 

[Steel_Wind]

I take a darker, more pessimistic approach than most of you. I think it is the end, basically. The end.

Dragon Magazine, in the form of The Strategic Review, actually pre-dates Dungeons and Dragons. It has always been the core magazine of roleplaying along the Dungeons and Dragons lines (other magazines cover White Wolf and Warhammer games, etc.) It's been the core since the early 1970s, the core of the entire Hobby of D&D since it's inception.
If Dragon Magazine can no longer be maintained, in my eyes that signifies there is no longer enough money left in this part of the Hobby to maintain even the core product.

Someone asked 'what's next?' The next thing to go will be GenCon.

It's over.

No. The difference here is one of expectations. The profit expectations of Hasbro are very different than TSR's, or WotC under Adkinson for that matter.

And they are very different from Paizo's.

Those magazines were turning a profit and were the mainstay of a hobby games market.

WotC is of the view that they were not maximizing a profit to be extracted from a mass market.

That's two very different things.

 

[Vigilance]

No. The difference here is one of expectations. The profit expectations of Hasbro are very different than TSR's, or WotC under Adkinson for that matter.

And they are very different from Paizo's.

Those magazines were turning a profit and were the mainstay of a hobby games market.

WotC is of the view that they were not maximizing a profit to be extracted from a mass market.

That's two very different things.

Well when a magazine has a circulation of 50K, and you have an active player base of 5 million, it doesn't seem like a radical leap to think you could do better.

Especially because the magazines were WELL RUN.

Those circulation figures aren't a slam at Paizo in any way.

But maybe, just maybe, those numbers are a sign that the magazine industry isn't a good one to be in, and it's time to try something else?

Maybe?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Let me draw an analogy:

When fewer trains run down the railroad tracks, I'd say business is off.
When almost no trains run down the railroad tracks, I'd say business is way off.
When no trains run down the railroad tracks, the tracks are rusted, and the rail-right-of-way is covered in brush, I'd say the state of business is truly bad.
When they tear out the railroad tracks and convert the right-of-way into a paved bicycle path, then I would say it's over.

Well, they just tore out the railroad tracks, by cancelling Dragon and Dungeon Magazines.
So, in my book, it's over.

Now, the bicyclists may enjoy the parkway, and commerce may continue on the freeways, and people may point to that and say: something is still happening.
That's true: something is still happening. But it's not trains on railroad tracks.
In the Hobby something will continue to happen. But it won't be Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Nightfall]

Steel,

That is true. There's a difference between 'maximizing' profits and being stupid.


Ag,

I'm glad you and I are on the same page. I'm not against the guys writing those "love quotes". But honestly, it's pretty disingenuous for WotC to have that and then expect "Oh yeah come over and feel love!"

Edena,

So what it's now Worlds of Darkness instead of D&D?

 

[Shawn_Kehoe]

It is a standard clause. I have personally drafted it over two dozen times. Nobody has ever blinked twice about it. That is how most mutual press releases are done. In fact, it's usually one of the principal purposes of a mutual press release: everyone speaks with the same voice.



I've been drafting contracts, as a professional attorney, since 1995. It's my principal focus in law. It's a standard clause. I am genuinely surprised it is not present in this case.

I KNEW IT!

When you asked the Paizo rep whether he was a principal in negotiations, or whether he wanted to provide evidence on the record ... I knew there was a lawyer in the house!

After spending 5 years on the university debating circuit, my spider-sense is attuned to law-speak.

Shawn