Pathfinder 1E Paizo no longer publishing Dungeon and Dragon

[Vocenoctum]

Regular Wizards and sTar wars writer Owen stevens has a pretty negative opinion of this thread, and all of us

http://owen-stephens.livejournal.com/27677.html

"One major complaint I have heard is that this was done "without warning." That's stupid. This is April, the print run ends in September. That's half a year's warning. If you mean the decision was made with no opportunity for fans to complain before it was settled, you're right. But since fans rarely mean what they say about things like this (see below), most companies don't run major decisions by them. In the case of WotC, there can actually be SEC considerations about when information on new products is released and how those decisions were made."

This is a great quote.

 

[Holy Bovine]

Regular Wizards and sTar wars writer Owen stevens has a pretty negative opinion of this thread, and all of us

http://owen-stephens.livejournal.com/27677.html

Errr did he say that?

No.

Unless you are the one who compared losing Dragon magazine to being raped I don't think he was talking about the majority here. Just the fringe wackos.

 

[Ghendar]

Regular Wizards and sTar wars writer Owen stevens has a pretty negative opinion of this thread, and all of us

http://owen-stephens.livejournal.com/27677.html

I read it and what truly bothers me about it is that he will probably end up being right. Most of those who cried and moaned and gnashed their teeth will, in the end, buy into the DI.
Dragon and Dungeon are truly dead as print magazines.

For me anyway, my opinion and intentions remain unchanged. I want a tangible paper magazine I can hold in my hands. Oh well, maybe Pathfinder will fill that need because I know Wizard's DI will not.

 

[Mark CMG]

I think it's intersting to compare this munber with the number of 5 million D&D players quoted so often as proof that the magazines with a readership of 30-40000 people were insignificant.

Mark, could you tell us where this number is from?

I say "supposed" because I do not believe that I have ever seen direct proof of such numbers, and I am low-balling it at one million (as you note, the number is sometimes as high as 5 million according to some). I believe many people try to extrapolate from the February 07, 2000 Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0 (housed on Sean Reynold's site) whose summary was originally prepared by Ryan Dancey while he was Brand Manager of D&D at WotC. The report specifies that, at that time, 2.25 million people played TRPGs monthly and although I preface with the caveat "supposed" I'm not all too uncomfortable with a figure like one million monthly D&D players. That may actually be quite conservative since the resurgence that began seven years ago wit the advent of Third Edition and the d20/OGL movement.

 

[MadMaxim]

You're probably right, Ghendar. I know that big corporations don't make decisions based on what their customers want (except if their market research tells them that), so Wizards of the Coast basically just wants to be the only fish in the pond publishing official Dungeons & Dragons content. You can't really blame them for that. It just doesn't make the way they handled the announcement any better than before, whether or not they are the only ones to be publishing offical Dungeons & Dragons content.

What I never figured out, though, is who are all those people who buy Dungeons & Dragons products but aren't active online? Are they all new players that came into the hobby through the miniatures or the 3.5 version? If they aren't even online, how's the digital initiative ever going to be successful? I'm just wondering...

 

[Piratecat]

Regular Wizards and sTar wars writer Owen stevens has a pretty negative opinion of this thread, and all of us

http://owen-stephens.livejournal.com/27677.html

If that's the case, I certainly don't blame him for his impression; the last few days here haven't been particularly admirable for many people. Either way, though, we will in no way tolerate any dog-piling on Mr. Stevens. Doing so will get you suspended with blinding speed. He's entitled to his opinion, and I will not fault him for having one.

 

[3catcircus]

You're probably right, Ghendar. I know that big corporations don't make decisions based on what their customers want (except if their market research tells them that), so Wizards of the Coast basically just wants to be the only fish in the pond publishing official Dungeons & Dragons content. You can't really blame them for that. It just doesn't make the way they handled the announcement any better than before, whether or not they are the only ones to be publishing offical Dungeons & Dragons content.

What I never figured out, though, is who are all those people who buy Dungeons & Dragons products but aren't active online? Are they all new players that came into the hobby through the miniatures or the 3.5 version? If they aren't even online, how's the digital initiative ever going to be successful? I'm just wondering...

I work for a huge company (140,000 people all over the world in a whole range of disciplines - business, engineering, science, IT, etc.) While it is a different market than hobby gaming, big corporations *do* make decisions based upon what their customers want, even in the face of market research - specifically because they are being paid to do so. We live and die by what our customers want. If the customer wants something and it is within our ability to implement, it gets done. Granted, we get paid *extra* for things that are out of scope/contract, but it is still all about the customer. In the case where the customer wants a *bad idea* implemented, we try and educate them about why a different solution is better, or what they want isn't really what they think they want, but in the end, if it won't lose us money or cause us liability, we'll do what the customer wants, even if it is a bad idea.

Alienating/pissing off a customer is the quickest way to guarantee that you don't get repeat business.

 

[Mark CMG]

(. . .) the only ones to be publishing offical Dungeons & Dragons content.

I'm not so sure it is that, so much, as wanting to be in control of what gets held up alongside D&D, as a peer or an equal. I think we'll know more when we see how the Digital Initiative is handled, especially in regard to any advertising they do or do not have imbedded.

What I never figured out, though, is who are all those people who buy Dungeons & Dragons products but aren't active online? Are they all new players that came into the hobby through the miniatures or the 3.5 version? If they aren't even online, how's the digital initiative ever going to be successful? I'm just wondering...

That is going to be the most interesting part of this initiative from my perspective. Although I am not happy that the magazines are going bye-bye, and don't believe that was necessarily a prerequisite to the Digital Initiative, as an ePublisher I am thrilled that WotC has taken on the burden of converting their millions of players into people who will not only be online but also will spend money online monthly. It is amazing how small a percentage of their target market I would need to be comfortable as an ePublisher.

 

[3catcircus]

Regular Wizards and sTar wars writer Owen stevens has a pretty negative opinion of this thread, and all of us

http://owen-stephens.livejournal.com/27677.html

The thing that struck me was a responder's point that he would've bought the digital initiative in addition to Dragon and Dungeon.

I know for a fact that if it was *good enough for the right price*, I'd also buy it in addition to Dragon and Dungeon.

The operative words being "good enough" and "right price." I bought DMGenie. I didn't buy E-Tools. I've bought 3rd-party d20 products and 1st/2nd edition TSR/WotC pdfs. I didn't buy 3.x WotC pdfs.

 

[Ghendar]

Alienating/pissing off a customer is the quickest way to guarantee that you don't get repeat business.

Agreed.
However, I suspect that WotC considers us "malcontents" who so vociferously oppose this decision to be sufficiently small as to be insignificant in the grand scheme. We are a very vocal minority who will not affect sales all that much to make any real difference.

And they very well might be right. Some of the people here who are angry and vowing never to buy into the DI will crack when they see it. They will see something they like and in the end, prove that initial righteous indignation really doesn't matter. They will return eventually.

All I have personally is my opposition. All I can do is withhold my money but in the end enough people will come around thus making my protest totally insignificant.

Oh well. At least I will be able to carry around my copy of Pathfinder so i can read it anywhere. Same can't be said for Wizard's e-content and that's the main reason I have no use for it.