D&D 5E Paladin and Ranger Are Backward

[doctorbadwolf]

Cordon of Arrows is available at 5th level, trading one of the ranger's two spell slots for an effect I would easily allow with a tripwire and a couple of crossbows. It deals up to 4d6, which is bad for a 2nd level spell in general, but even worse at 5th level, when the damage is nuisance level (on top of making me roll up to 4 saves). If it was a ritual, it would be OK, but as is, it's weak.

Hail of Thorns uses concentration, as you note, making it automatically downgraded. It deals 1d10 in a 5' radius, which is pretty mediocre. It (and really all ranger spells in early game) are competing with Hunter's Mark, the class feature disguised as a spell that also unfortunately uses concentration (as does pass without trace). Middling damage, tiny radius, no secondary effect, concentration... what more could you want to throw it in the garbage pile?

Yeah you play a different game from any I’ve seen irl.

You often have 4 crossbows in your pack?

It’s a no-concentration spell that you can set up before a fight, and it just works, no further fuss required. While you’re dealing full warrior class damage on top of it.

Hail of Thorns doesn’t deal 1d10 in a 5ft radius, it deals that on top of an attack action.

Concentration doesn’t downgrade the spell, all spells that add to an attack as part of the spell do.

You seem to be comparing ranger spells to full caster spells, rather than the result of a turn of actions of a ranger against the result of a turn of actions of a full caster. This will lead to false results, because it isn’t a valid comparison.

 

[Sithlord]

If fighter subclasses did more, I’d be more into fighter subclasses, but so much of the fighters power is its base class features and extra ASIs, that it’s subclasses are flavorful but fairly superficial mechanically.

I’d also change those spells to be part of an attack, and not use concentration unless they have a lasting effect, but yeah I’m okay with that.
I’d also make Lay on Hands less powerful, and just generally make the Paladin more warrior and the cleric more priest, but that’s maybe another thread.

I love that idea, and I wonder if it could be what gives Favored Enemy some punch.
I had thought to give Rangers herb-craft based healing and poisons, and be able to make poisons that bypass resistances and special defenses of creatures.

Once again we find that the games I’ve played, run, seen others run, and consumed as digital media, are completely different from your experiences of the game.

I’ve never seen a 5e Paladin not cast spells.

I’ve never seen a 5E paladin cast spells. Full on smite.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Like...spending an action before combat to do 4d6 damage on top of having all your actions during the fight, is good.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I’ve never seen a 5E paladin cast spells. Full on smite.

Okay?

 

[Sithlord]

Okay?

Um. Posted in wrong thread by mistake.

 

[CleverNickName]

I’ve never seen a 5E paladin cast spells. Full on smite.

Yup, same here. The entire paladin spell list could be just a single first-level spell, and the paladin player in my group wouldn't even be able to tell you its name.

Why even have spells at all, at that point? Why not just have a "Smite X times per day" and be done with it? (Real question, not trolling I promise.) Seems like that would be easier for all involved.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yup, same here. The entire paladin spell list could be just a single first-level spell, and the paladin player in my group wouldn't even be able to tell you its name.

Why even have spells at all, at that point? Why not just have a "Smite X times per day" and be done with it? (Real question, not trolling I promise.) Seems like that would be easier for all involved.

Well, because only some players see 2d8 damage as worth more than a little less damage and frightening a target, much less spells like Bless or later spells like Crusader’s Mantle*, not to mention out of combat spells.

If you have other melee/short range party members/pets/other allies, and are smiting at 3 level, and it isn’t because you got a crit, you’re wasting that spell slot. Mantle is 1d4 per hit to every ally with 30ft of you. That is going to outdo a smite in a single round, much less the 2-3 rounds it’s likely to be up.

Even a crit smite...just do it at level 1.

 

[auburn2]

I’ve never seen a 5E paladin cast spells. Full on smite.

This is the biggest problem with the Paladin class. If you cast any spells you feel like you are wasting your slots.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

This is the biggest problem with the Paladin class. If you cast any spells you feel like you are wasting your slots.

My experience with my own characters and running for or observing others play is, almost without exception, completely the opposite.

Most spells are worth more than 2d8 extra damage.

 

[humble minion]

This is the biggest problem with the Paladin class. If you cast any spells you feel like you are wasting your slots.

Matter of opinion i think. Playing my paladin, if i smite on a non-crit, I feel I'm wasting my slots. Burning a potential Bless or Protection from Evil or even Command for a measly 9-average damage?

The only thing from stopping me casting even more spells is the relative lack of good Concentrationless spells on the list. I'll have to give Warding Bond a try though, now Tasha added it as a paladin spell.