5E Paladin Archetypes... *meh*

Mort

Community Supporter
This is where we just aren't seeing it. The Paladin class is good IMO (and has always been powerful), but the archetypes are very bland. Maybe because they did focus on the White, Green, and Blank knight?

When people want to play a class, and are turned off fromt it because none of the archetypes appeal, that is an issue!

By your other comments, your group doesn't have a problem with the flavor, but the actual power level of the archetypes?

Because, in play, the power bump seems significant.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
By your other comments, your group doesn't have a problem with the flavor, but the actual power level of the archetypes?

Because, in play, the power bump seems significant.
Well, personally, even the flavor (white/green/black knight, et. al) is bland to me, and compared to other archetypes the power level seems lackluster. I could easily be mistaken or missing something, since they all seem so unappealing we haven't even tried them--which is why I wanted to ask people who have played them. :)

Like I said, the features are generally so meh that so far no one has cared which archetype to choose, and so far the only paladin we have seen played ended up using the homebrewed Oath of Protection I posted before.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
That's a good thing, it indicates they are well balanced mechanically, you just choose the one whose oath matches the type of character you want to role play.
Really? When it is so bad no one wants to play them? That doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

It is like the thread about adding more archetypes. I find about half the archetypes useless as it is, but others want even more... Most of the features are so weak, it is like asking, "Why even bother?"

I understand some people might like the "direction" the archetypes provide for flavor, etc. but I've never needed anything like that. If I want to play a "green knight", I role-play him that way. So, to me anyway, if there isn't something cool or interesting there, it is meh.
 
Really? When it is so bad no one wants to play them?
That's okay, then no one wants to play a paladin. Neither do I. I don't want to play a barbarian either, they are all pretty dull.

Most of the features are so weak,
The oath features are weak (really?!, have you seen what they get at level 20?!) because the core class is strong. Very strong. A DPS speadsheet was done a couple of days ago, and you know which melee class turned out to have the highest DPS? Paladin.
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
The spells that a paladin has access to and whether or not they get used can make a difference as well. I know that a lot of people playing paladins will never notice a difference because every spell slot goes to enhance damage because that's what the spreadsheets tell you to do.

My Oath of The Ancients felt different because he would hit someone and restrain them, or misty step across the battlefield to get into the middle of the fight. My party really appreciated that resistance to spell damage at higher levels. That Oath of Conquest guy? Armor of Agathys and jump into the fray while at higher levels has Spiritual Weapon to help him out. Or just do the 1-2 combination of frightening your enemies and then moving close so they can't flee.

Of course if all you do is use your spells for smiting, you're not going to notice as much of a difference.

End of the day, no one can convince your PCs to play a specific class. In my experience they are reasonably effective and fun to play. Then again if no one ever plays one they'll never know.
 
Yeah, it's the spells that matter. The Oath of Vengeance paladin in our game generally has Hunter's Mark in play. It's dull as ditchwater but the effect on damage output over time is massive. And it could be leveraged further with PAM or Sentinel feats. Or Elven Accuracy on a dex build.
 

Mort

Community Supporter
Yeah, it's the spells that matter. The Oath of Vengeance paladin in our game generally has Hunter's Mark in play. It's dull as ditchwater but the effect on damage output over time is massive. And it could be leveraged further with PAM or Sentinel feats. Or Elven Accuracy on a dex build.
Mechanics on their own don't usually scream with excitement. But they can enable exiting play.

Hunter's Mark, for example, can give a paladin a totally different flavour than typical. If the player is having fun with the difference. It'll come out in play and add to the fun of the table.

Of course, The fact that, mechanically it's quite strong - certainly doesn't hurt.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, personally, even the flavor (white/green/black knight, et. al) is bland to me, and compared to other archetypes the power level seems lackluster.
Based on legendary oath bound heros, just about any oath is possible but from my reading aside from some very minor correlations (all making use of berserkergang and having conflicting oaths) the nature of the power gained and what armor if any and so on seems very inconsistent. Paladin smite fests are some of the biggest novas rumor has it.
 

Hexmage-EN

Explorer
I had a player run an Oath of Vengeance Paladin up to level 20. He was a literal holy terror that critted left and right and demolished everything in his path to wind up as the new Archduke of Stygia. The Oath of Vengeance features and special spells made him an overwhelming threat who carved swathes through fiendish hordes. He even defeated Geryon in one-on-one combat before the devil could even attack!

As for the flavor, as a Paladin of Vengeance he would seek revenge on behalf of others, including aiding Glasya in getting revenge on Levistus for (supposedly) killing her mother.
 
The issue for me would be that each of the Oaths seems to want to take part of what I have always felt paladins to be (since 1E) and says, "Well no, we want paladins to have specialists among them, so only SOME paladins care a lot about these aspects of being paladins, and here's cool powers to make them interesting now that we've cut them off from other aspects of who they should be anyway." But that's just me. I have a HIGHLY old-fashioned, old-school, and rather inflexible attitude about how paladins have been treated since 1E.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Shiroiken said:
I feel that the primary difference in the Oaths is more role-play than mechanical. The difference in benefits is fairly minimal, unless playing a specific kind of game (although I know the Oath of Vengence Vow of Enmity ability is popular with Great Weapon Master users). My group has a fondness for Oath of Conquest, playing a LN or LE bringer of order.
I disagree, I find the pacts have a significant mechanical impact on your build.

Two-weapon wielder with Great Weapon Mastery - I've seen this many times,and it's always been Oath of Vengeance. You mentioned this, but at the AL leagues run at my FLGS it was Every. Single. One. If it was going GWM, it was OoV.

Oath of Ancients, with it's anti-magic aura, seems to attract those who are are building more protective paladins. This often affects choice of fighting style (a base class choice) as well as usually either going weapon and shield or polearm (and then feats like Sentiniel or Polearm Mastery).
 
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dnd4vr

Adventurer
He even defeated Geryon in one-on-one combat before the devil could even attack!
So, what the character was dual-wielding holy avengers while hasted with maxed out ability scores and novaed divine strikes, getting at least one critical hit? That's about the only way that would happen. Oh, and they won initiative. LOL!
 

Mort

Community Supporter
I disagree, I find the pacts have a significant mechanical impact on your build.

Two-weapon wielder with Great Weapon Mastery - I've seen this many times,and it's always been Oath of Vengeance. You mentioned this, but at the AL leagues run at my FLGS it was Every. Single. One. If it was going GWM, it was OoV.
Since you generally can't pick your party in AL, I can see that.

But when you can, oath of devotion (with GWM) coupled with a wolf barbarian teammate is amazing synergy. Advantage on attacks and +Cha to attack is really nasty.

As for differential on oaths - I've done a devotion paladin and a vengeance paladin. They play very different.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
I disagree, I find the pacts have a significant mechanical impact on your build.

Two-weapon wielder with Great Weapon Mastery - I've seen this many times,and it's always been Oath of Vengeance. You mentioned this, but at the AL leagues run at my FLGS it was Every. Single. One. If it was going GWM, it was OoV.

Oath of Ancients, with it's anti-magic aura, seems to attract those who are are building more protective paladins. This often affects choice of fighting style (a base class choice) as well as usually either going weapon and shield or polearm (and then feats like Sentiniel or Polearm Mastery).
Please remove me from your quote in post #33. That was not one of my posts or anything I wrote, it was
Shiroiken.

Thank you.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Since you generally can't pick your party in AL, I can see that.

But when you can, oath of devotion (with GWM) coupled with a wolf barbarian teammate is amazing synergy. Advantage on attacks and +Cha to attack is really nasty.

As for differential on oaths - I've done a devotion paladin and a vengeance paladin. They play very different.
I agree that they play very differently - that was my point.
 

Blue

Orcus on a bad hair day
Please remove me from your quote in post #33. That was not one of my posts or anything I wrote, it was
Shiroiken.

Thank you.
Many apologies, and corrected. I had accidentally deleted the QUOTE block header while editing and I thought I grabbed the right one. I was mistaken.
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
I had a player run an Oath of Vengeance Paladin up to level 20. He was a literal holy terror that critted left and right and demolished everything in his path to wind up as the new Archduke of Stygia. The Oath of Vengeance features and special spells made him an overwhelming threat who carved swathes through fiendish hordes. He even defeated Geryon in one-on-one combat before the devil could even attack!

As for the flavor, as a Paladin of Vengeance he would seek revenge on behalf of others, including aiding Glasya in getting revenge on Levistus for (supposedly) killing her mother.
Uh how. Geryon can has legendary actions and stuff, so how did the Paladin deal 300 damage in one round.
 

dnd4vr

Adventurer
Uh how. Geryon can has legendary actions and stuff, so how did the Paladin deal 300 damage in one round.
The damage is possible, sadly, but some luck is involved (winning Initiative) and prep-time is required (as I see it, at least two rounds before the fight). With a maximum of 4 attacks (2 with extra attack, TWF, and prepared haste) and nova divine smite, two holy avengers, etc. damage per hit can average over 60 or so, with criticals over 100. Three normal hits and one critical and it is game over. Of course, that is only about a 1-in-3 chance of getting at least 1 critical out of the four (assuming advantage on the attacks from Vow of Enmity, also prepped).

So, like I said, luck and prep. I don't know, my numbers might be off a bit, but it is within the realm of possibility given either a generous DM or very well-thought-out plan (or both!).
 

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