Paladin balanced without RP/alignment restrictions?

[The Souljourner]

Immune to fear - whatever. On average, I'd say I have to make a save vs. fear about once or twice per campaign.

Immune to disease - even more whatever. Diseases almost never have immediate effects, so all you need is for your cleric to prepare Remove Disease tomorrow and you're fine. Added to that is the fact that they really aren't that common, *and* they're fort based, which all fighter classes have in spades.

Now as for lay on hands and divine grace... these are both a curse and a blessing. Either you're playing point buy, and you have to waste points on a decent charisma, where the fighter dumps his 8, or you're actually rolling, and you need to be way above the bell curve to have a playable character.

Let's look at 28 point buy (standard power level). Fighter is easy - 16 13 14 13 10 8. 16 Strength, 14 Con, 13 dex and int (for feats), 10 wisdom, 8 charisma. Mush them around a bit, and you can customize a little bit. Now the paladin - 15 12 14 8 12 14
15 strength (had 2 extra points), 12 dex (full plate), 14 con, 8 int (could be 10 if str is 14), 12 wis (could be 14 if str is 14), 14 Charisma.

14 charisma. It's really difficult to get higher than that with point buy and not screw the rest of your stats that you *need* for fighting and spellcasting. 14. Not 18, not 16, - 14. That's a mere 2 hitpoints per level for lay on hands, and a mere +2 to your saves from divine grace. And that's with lower strength, dex, and intelligence than the fighter. This paladin doesn't qualify for any of the dodge based feats or the expertise based feats, and only gets one skillpoint per level (2 if human).

2 hitpoints per level is practically negligible. This paladin gets 7.5 hitpoints per level on average... so lay on hands is only about 1/4 his total hitpoints.

At high levels, the paladin gets better, because he can afford to pay 36,000gp for a cloak of charisma +6, which gives him +3 to all his saves and 3 extra hitpoints per level with lay on hands. But you can't afford that until well above 10th level (unless you don't want any other magic items).

Paladins are a lot like bards... they get several minor abilities that are cool, but not overly powerful, and they get awesome roleplaying opportunities. Don't get me wrong, I like both classes, but I think paladins could use a little boost. Sure, they are great for munchkins, because they take advantage of many stats... but in a realistic campaign, relying on multiple stats is a hindrance in combat, not a benefit.

[edit] The ability to use wands and scrolls is only really a benefit if you don't have a cleric or druid in the party... and if you don't, you're going to have difficulty regardless. Mounts don't make the paladin any faster than anyone else. Only rarely are fights on open ground where mounts could be a factor in a battle. Ask the druid in my party... he has a *medium sized* wolf as a companion, and there are plenty of times when even he can't get to the fight.

You have to look at a paladin, not in the scope of one on one fights, but in the scope of where he'll be 90% of the time in D&D - in a party of other adventurers going on adventures.

-The Souljourner

 

[Treebore]

In a one on one fight with a fighter a paladin would be committing suicide to cast a spell on himself or use his lay on hands on himself. Those are full-round actions, not to mention AoO possibilities. His loss of attack opportunity while the fighter keeps on hacking away would almost assure the paladins defeat.

Paladins, on the whole, in a "real" game situation have a greater chance of surviving, but they are not the best melee character in the game.

 

[Celtavian]

Immune to fear - whatever. On average, I'd say I have to make a save vs. fear about once or twice per campaign.

Maybe at low levels, at level about 8 to 10 and above fear is a pretty common ability or spell that alot of creatures have. Many times alot of the party has been sent running while the Paladin stands his ground.

Immune to disease - even more whatever. Diseases almost never have immediate effects, so all you need is for your cleric to prepare Remove Disease tomorrow and you're fine. Added to that is the fact that they really aren't that common, *and* they're fort based, which all fighter classes have in spades.

Still better than any of the other melee classes.

Now as for lay on hands and divine grace... these are both a curse and a blessing. Either you're playing point buy, and you have to waste points on a decent charisma, where the fighter dumps his 8, or you're actually rolling, and you need to be way above the bell curve to have a playable character.

It gets real nice at higher level.

Paladins have access to stronger healing than Lay on Hands, or do you completely ignore their access to spells up to Cure Critical Wounds and Restoration via personal spells, and more importantly, magic items.

Paladins are a lot like bards... they get several minor abilities that are cool, but not overly powerful, and they get awesome roleplaying opportunities. Don't get me wrong, I like both classes, but I think paladins could use a little boost. Sure, they are great for munchkins, because they take advantage of many stats... but in a realistic campaign, relying on multiple stats is a hindrance in combat, not a benefit.

Yea, Paladins are alot like bards, very powerful in group play.

The ability to use wands and scrolls is only really a benefit if you don't have a cleric or druid in the party... and if you don't, you're going to have difficulty regardless.

This makes me question the validity of your statements. Why does it matter if a cleric or druid is in the group? The Paladin can still make use of a wand or scroll with a divine spell on his list.

The clerics and druids in our party actually make the Paladin a few scrolls or a wand alot of the time to give him the ability to heal himself if needed.

Mounts don't make the paladin any faster than anyone else. Only rarely are fights on open ground where mounts could be a factor in a battle. Ask the druid in my party... he has a *medium sized* wolf as a companion, and there are plenty of times when even he can't get to the fight.

I've been through plenty of modules where the area was big enough for a large creature. Caverns and large rooms. It does make a Paladin faster than the other members of the group save for the monk.

You don't need to be on open ground to ride your mount, just large enough halls like caverns, castle courtyards, large temple areas, etc, etc.

You have to look at a paladin, not in the scope of one on one fights, but in the scope of where he'll be 90% of the time in D&D - in a party of other adventurers going on adventures.

-The Souljourner

Exactly. A Paladin is great in Player vs. Adventure games where they are 90% of the time.

 

[The Souljourner]

Like I said before, even at high levels, I encounter fear only a couple times per campaign. Maybe you fight a lot of big dragons, for us they're rare, since most of the time we're not just fighting randomized encounters, but ones that fit into the plot and make sense... They're the only monsters I can think of offhand that have some kind of fear aura.

Saying that being immune to disease is better than the other fighter classes is not an argument. Technically, having +1 skillpoint at first level would make the paladin better. The question is, is it enough better to matter? And my answer is no, it's a negligible benefit.

Cure critical wounds?! First off, you must mean cure serious, because paladins don't even get cure critical. Second, it's a 4th level spell, which means that at 14th level (!) you must have an 18 wisdom to get a bonus spell so you can cast a single 4th level spell per day. If you choose cure serious, you heal a massive 3d8+7 damage. That's 20 damage on average. At 14th level, that's easily a single hit from almost any enemy.

My point about being able to use wands is that healing spells can be cast on others, so the paladin being able to use it on himself is only of marginal use. The cleric or druid could use the wand on the fighter, or just cast Mass Cure X.

Caverns and large rooms are all well and good, but what happens when you come to a ladder or a rope that needs to be climbed? Happens to us all the time... that's where we lose the druid's wolf.

And that's not to mention that actually fighting from horseback takes at least one feat, and to really take advantage, takes a few.

-The Souljourner

 

[MerakSpielman]

We should set up a grunge match in the PbP forums. I don't have time to DM it though.

I see several possiblities:

Fighter versus Paladin.
4-member party with fighter versus 4-member party with paladin
several fighters versus several paladins
4 fighters versus 3 fighters and a paladin

If fighter and paladin are balanced, these should all be impossible to call ahead of time. each side should be equally matched. We'd have to repeat several combats to come to any reasonable conclusion.

People seem to love "such and such class is too weak/powerful" arguements, but they don't seem to realize that it's possible to test their theories.

So if somebody wants to DM such a match (or three), I'll be one of the fighters/paladins!

 

[Silverglass]

<snip>
1. When that scary dragon comes, they stand ready to fight without a second thought.

Fear effects are generally uncommon unless you are a professional Dragon Hunter and it is only the paladin that is immune. The rest of the party only get a +4 if they are within 10ft, which is not automatic. And if the majority of the rest of the party run away he has to do the same or get killed.

Calm Emotions is a 2nd level cleric spell that has a greater radius and makes all allies immune to fear for 1 round/level.

2. The DM blinks while the Paladin player tells him straight faced that he has a +13 Reflex save and a +16 Will save because of his high charisma.

But high charisma happens at high levels because the Paladin needs at least 4 of his 6 stats. STR, CON, WIS and CHA are all very important for a Paladin. Below 15th most Paladins end up with an extra +2 or +3 on their saves from Divine Grace, this is not a huge diference when making a Ref or Will save can be very difficult anyway.

3. The regular fighter is crying for the cleric (or the Paladin) after exhausting his cure potions, the Paladin pulls out his wand of cure serious wounds and starts healing himself.

If the Paladin is doing this in combat he will die just as fast as anyone else. Losing his iterative attacks and losing tactical domination for casting 3d8+7 healing is a very bad decision. If its after combat then it doesn't matter who uses the wand, it could be the party rogue (and its better to use CLW outside combat).

4. The monk is crying for the cleric (or the Paladin) because some nasty spectres just gave him negative levels, the Paladin draws his Restoration scroll and restores himself.

See above, and in any case energy drain protection is something that ALL high level characters should strive to get. Alternatively the Monk could smile grab the scroll and cast it on himself as he has put enough points into UMD.

5. The party is attacked by flying demons. The Paladin mounts his half-celestial unicorn and flys up to meet them.

Only if your DM allows cheesy mounts such as a half-celestial unicorn. But a fighter could get that with the Leadership feat, and he has those to spare. So no exclusive benefit for the paladin there.

6. The fighter is screaming for align weapon so he can land a blow on a fiend, the paladin casts bless weapon and proceeds to swing away.

Assuming that the paladin has a bless weapon prepared and has not already used it and also assuming that it is Good DR that he needs to penetrate and that he does have a cold iron and/or silver weapon because against Devils and Demons he will need both. If all he's got is a +1 longsword and he's up against a strong devil or demon his spell doesn't get him through the damage reduction and he lacks the feats to spend on upping his damage while doing other things. But if the Paladin has the spell available and its all that is needed we can also assume that the cleric can cast it on the fighter.

Of course in 3.5 the fact that the fighter is facing DR 10/Good and Silver is much less a factor because he can penetrate that DR consistently with damage and he has the many feats available to up his hit chance and damage while also getting some neat tricks.

A Paladin is powerful, the most powerful of the melee classes. So many useful capabilities that you have to balance the class by giving them a code of conduct, or it would get outlandish.

I am truly boggled when someone states the Paladin is a weak melee class. I'm wondering what type of game they are in and how they are playing the class. Every Paladin I've ever played or seen played has been one of the most powerful characters in the group. I can't imagine allowing another class to have such abilities without some roleplaying restriciton such as a service to a god, cause, or code of ethics and morality.

Paladins are weaker than fighters. Their abilities are fixed and highly situational whereas a fighter can spend his extra feats to cover him in other situations. Fighting neutral monsters underground, the paladin has just lost the use of smite and his mount.

Disease is a very rare thing in D&D, few creatures confer it, it has a reasonably long onset and its curable by low level magic or the Heal skill. Turn Undead (at level -3) is poor compared to a clerics ability.

The paladin's benefits probably balance out the feat loss from being a fighter, if the paladin uses them all the time (which is not how the game is constructed) then yes a paladin looks powerful. But in a campaign where you don't meet evil disease laden undead all the time a paladin roughly equals a fighter because they are weaker in situations where there abilities don't apply.

 

[LostSoul]

I DM a game with a Paladin (who began his career as a Fighter). He had a low Wis and Cha, so that didn't help him much. Although his Wis is higher now and he's a little more effective.

He was less effective in combat than he would have been if he continued on as a Fighter.

There was a great moment early on in his Paladin career when he got hit with a high DC Fear, and shrugged it off. heh heh. That was fun.

And I let the player decide if he wants to keep his Paladinhood or not. He makes those choices, not me. I just try and set up situations for him where he has to agonize over his decisions.

Anyways, he's still second fiddle to the Wizard in the party.

 

[Votan]

Let's look at 28 point buy (standard power level). Fighter is easy - 16 13 14 13 10 8. 16 Strength, 14 Con, 13 dex and int (for feats), 10 wisdom, 8 charisma. Mush them around a bit, and you can customize a little bit. Now the paladin - 15 12 14 8 12 14
15 strength (had 2 extra points), 12 dex (full plate), 14 con, 8 int (could be 10 if str is 14), 12 wis (could be 14 if str is 14), 14 Charisma.

14 charisma. It's really difficult to get higher than that with point buy and not screw the rest of your stats that you *need* for fighting and spellcasting. 14.

While a agree that a Paladin is balanced with a fighter, the spells add very little (especially if you don;t stay as a Paladin for 20 levels).

I think that

16 10 14 8 8 16

Is a possible alternative for a non-spellcasting fighting Paladin.

But that is still only +3 and costs you spells!

 

[The Souljourner]

It is +3, but you've lost 2 from your will save and 1 from your reflex save over my stat line. Having 8 intelligence *and* wisdom really makes for a stupid character. Given the 16 charisma, the only thing I can think of is that his simple, blunt nature somehow endears him to people. Could be fun to roleplay, but I think 14 12 14 8 12 14 with two points to spare is probably better over all.

I really love the idea of a paladin.... I had a dwarven paladin who was totally cool... immunity to fear and disease is exactly what I think they should have.... the problem is that it just doesn't have enough of an impact on the game. If it were up to me, I'd drop the spells and the mount and give them a bunch more supernatural abilities, a la Lay on Hands, Remove Disease, and Turn Undead. That's what a paladin should be like. Spells are too structured and formal, paladins should be able to channel the holy power of their god more directly.

-The Souljourner

 

[Celtavian]

Fear effects are generally uncommon unless you are a professional Dragon Hunter and it is only the paladin that is immune. The rest of the party only get a +4 if they are within 10ft, which is not automatic. And if the majority of the rest of the party run away he has to do the same or get killed.

Every high level caster can cast fear.

Dragons give off fear.

Many creatures can cause a fear effect such as ghosts or krenshar.

Calm Emotions is a 2nd level cleric spell that has a greater radius and makes all allies immune to fear for 1 round/level.

Cleric might not have that spell slotted.

But high charisma happens at high levels because the Paladin needs at least 4 of his 6 stats. STR, CON, WIS and CHA are all very important for a Paladin. Below 15th most Paladins end up with an extra +2 or +3 on their saves from Divine Grace, this is not a huge diference when making a Ref or Will save can be very difficult anyway.

+2 or 3 on a save not a huge difference? I think it is a huge difference. It stacks with everything else you could possibly receive for a bonus on a save.

If the Paladin is doing this in combat he will die just as fast as anyone else. Losing his iterative attacks and losing tactical domination for casting 3d8+7 healing is a very bad decision. If its after combat then it doesn't matter who uses the wand, it could be the party rogue (and its better to use CLW outside combat).

Helps with downtime healing, something the other melee classes (save for perhaps the Rogue) can help with.

Not to mention Restoration and Death Ward, two extremely useful spells.

See above, and in any case energy drain protection is something that ALL high level characters should strive to get. Alternatively the Monk could smile grab the scroll and cast it on himself as he has put enough points into UMD.

If he has enough points to put in UMD? Are you kidding? That is a big assumption.

Assuming that the paladin has a bless weapon prepared and has not already used it and also assuming that it is Good DR that he needs to penetrate and that he does have a cold iron and/or silver weapon because against Devils and Demons he will need both. If all he's got is a +1 longsword and he's up against a strong devil or demon his spell doesn't get him through the damage reduction and he lacks the feats to spend on upping his damage while doing other things. But if the Paladin has the spell available and its all that is needed we can also assume that the cleric can cast it on the fighter.

Quite often you are fighting demons or devils with Good DR. the confirming crits against evil creatures is also nice.

Of course in 3.5 the fact that the fighter is facing DR 10/Good and Silver is much less a factor because he can penetrate that DR consistently with damage and he has the many feats available to up his hit chance and damage while also getting some neat tricks.

Why can't the Paladin penetrate DR consistently? Why don't you enlighten me as to what feats a fighter has that a Paladin can't purchase to make him break through DR more often? The extra 2 or 4 points from Weapon Specialization?

Paladins are weaker than fighters. Their abilities are fixed and highly situational whereas a fighter can spend his extra feats to cover him in other situations.

Many of the fighters feats are purely situational.

Fighting neutral monsters underground, the paladin has just lost the use of smite and his mount.

My mount is not a horse and it goes underground with me. A paladin is only marginally less effective against neutral monsters, and can be quite a bit more effective against evil monsters.

The difference in damage isn't that wide.

Turn Undead (at level -3) is poor compared to a clerics ability.

Turn undead at level -3 for a class with great melee capabilities is poor? Are you serious?

The paladin's benefits probably balance out the feat loss from being a fighter, if the paladin uses them all the time (which is not how the game is constructed) then yes a paladin looks powerful. But in a campaign where you don't meet evil disease laden undead all the time a paladin roughly equals a fighter because they are weaker in situations where there abilities don't apply.

There abilities apply more often than not. Like I said, every Paladin I've seen in the party is more powerful than the fighters I've seen. Paladins hold up very well in adventuring parties.

The majority of what an adventuring party fights is evil. Those few times that they fight something not evil, a Paladin still more than holds his own. Give a Paladin a greatsword, Power Attack, and Divine Might he more than holds his own with the melee types. That is two feats, easily spent by the Paladin.