Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Exactly right!FireLance said:
Daniel
Paladin balanced without RP/alignment restrictions?
- Thread starter Jeff Wilder
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Daniel
re
Sorry, I meant common adventurers...but I always picture adventurers as rather extraordinary people. Even extraordinary real people will often exceed 28 to 32 points because things like Strength, Dexterity and Constitution often go hand in hand, and do not take away from things like Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
Kind of like your average special ops soldier would probably almost always equal or exceed 28 to 32 points not because of a single high attribute, but because of multiple above average attributes. Alot of extraordinary people have multiple above average attributes, sometimes with a single extraordinary attribute.
Pielorinho said:Perhaps I'm missing something, but I was under the impression that a score of 10-11 represented, by the rules, the average ability of a human being--as in, that's the baseline for the whole ability score system. If that's the case, then the average human should be built on something like a 15-point buy, with some humans with fewer points and some humans with more points.
It's impossible (again, by definition) for most people to be above average.
Daniel
edit: In the last sentence, assume that I'm using "median" for my definition of "average," and it makes sense. If you're talking about means, however, then theoretically you could have most people be above average by having a couple of real nincompoops wighing down the low end of things.Also, I screwed up a number above and corrected it.
Sorry, I meant common adventurers...but I always picture adventurers as rather extraordinary people. Even extraordinary real people will often exceed 28 to 32 points because things like Strength, Dexterity and Constitution often go hand in hand, and do not take away from things like Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.
Kind of like your average special ops soldier would probably almost always equal or exceed 28 to 32 points not because of a single high attribute, but because of multiple above average attributes. Alot of extraordinary people have multiple above average attributes, sometimes with a single extraordinary attribute.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Okay, that makes sense. I'm not entirely certain I agree, but I see what you're saying.
Daniel
Daniel
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
There may be a "rule" squirreled away somewhere in the 3e ruleset that says that everyone that isn't a hero has a 10 or 11 in each attribute, etc.
However, historically in D&D I always assumed that the 3d6 attribute spread was used across the population. One in every 216 people had an 18 Str (why, that's the village blacksmith over there) One in every 216 people had a 3 Int (and there's the village idiot). Of course it's more complicated than that because we're talking about 6 attributes, but basically it was a reasonable assumption (especially in the pre-balance days) to assume that the same spread of attributes was available across the population.
I wonder if that is the basic position that Celtavian is coming from? It certainly has always been my position.
Cheers
However, historically in D&D I always assumed that the 3d6 attribute spread was used across the population. One in every 216 people had an 18 Str (why, that's the village blacksmith over there) One in every 216 people had a 3 Int (and there's the village idiot). Of course it's more complicated than that because we're talking about 6 attributes, but basically it was a reasonable assumption (especially in the pre-balance days) to assume that the same spread of attributes was available across the population.
I wonder if that is the basic position that Celtavian is coming from? It certainly has always been my position.
Cheers
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
n.b. there is a considerably "power break-point" for Paladins at 5th level - the warhorse is a considerable improvement in his power level. Perhaps this drops off at higher levels, we've not got there yet.
I'd bet on a 5th level Paladin plus warhorse (it's a class feature!) against a fighter relying on just his class features (feats) any day
Regarding fear effects - dragons and devils have lots of fear effects, and it is in fighting those (especially devils) that the paladin shines. Plus he has the role-playing benefit of not being cowed while his neighbour the fighter goes all weak-kneed
I'd bet on a 5th level Paladin plus warhorse (it's a class feature!) against a fighter relying on just his class features (feats) any day
Regarding fear effects - dragons and devils have lots of fear effects, and it is in fighting those (especially devils) that the paladin shines. Plus he has the role-playing benefit of not being cowed while his neighbour the fighter goes all weak-kneed
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Definitely so; but for everyone built on a 32-point buy (special forces), there's also gonna be someone built on a 2-point buy (the sickly illiterate princeling with constantly-running nose and tendency to burst out wailing at the slightest sign of unpleasantness). You end up with exceptions in each direction.Plane Sailing said:
What ends up being especially rare is the person who's in the top 5% in three different fields -- i.e., someone with three scores above a fifteen. Those people should be one in 20 cubed, or one in 8,000. If, in the other three fields they're in the top 50% (i.e., scores of 11 or above), then that brings us to one in 64,000 characters.
Granted, such a character would be a 39-point buy at minimum. But they're still rather rare.
(Note that I'm no mathematician, and my numbers may be off; if anyone wants to double-check them, I'd not mind a bit).
Daniel
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Celtavian said:
Under typical play conditions, having many key stats as do the paladin and monk is an unambiguous disadvantage until you reach very high levels (at which point you can afford a wide array of stat boosting items).
Yes, paladins and monks are the most powerful classes if you give your characters 17s and 18s in all key stats. But I am doubtful your experience under a strongly houseruled character generation scheme is really relevant to the question of the power level of paladins vs. fighters.
Personally, I think that the 3.5 Paladin, when taking full cheese advantage of the Pokemount, is about right. As the value of the mount fades, I think that the increased value of high saves and availability of stat boosting will compensate.
Celts method of character generation is inherantly flawed and unbalance.d
Fighters can at most only ever use 4 of their stats to any extent notable (Str, Dex, Con, Wis), this is the same for rangers, and barbarians.
Paladins can use 5 (As above + Cha). Thus if you are going to give high stats in every score you will always get most bang for your buck fom a class like paladin or monk. That doesnt make paladins overpowered it just means your method of character creation is flawed.
Paladins are balanced without RP alignment, personaly I dont see why paladins need any RP restrictions more than you would put on a cleric.
Majere
Fighters can at most only ever use 4 of their stats to any extent notable (Str, Dex, Con, Wis), this is the same for rangers, and barbarians.
Paladins can use 5 (As above + Cha). Thus if you are going to give high stats in every score you will always get most bang for your buck fom a class like paladin or monk. That doesnt make paladins overpowered it just means your method of character creation is flawed.
Paladins are balanced without RP alignment, personaly I dont see why paladins need any RP restrictions more than you would put on a cleric.
Majere
re
Flawed? How so? Because a Paladin can use a fifth stat? He still must give up one of those other stats for that good charisma. My system hardly guarantees that all 5 stats will be good. It works little different than the point based system, where fighters often use Charisma and Intelligence as a dump stat. Fighters usually stack Str, Dex, and Con, and Paladins usually stack Str, Con, and Cha. A Paladin gives up Dexterity for a better Charisma. A Paladin can be powerful with three good stats: Str, Con, and Charisma. Wisdom need only max out at 12 or 14 for maximum spell benefit, and the lack of Dexterity is more than made up for by the good saves provided by high Charisma.
Your assertion is flawed. You have little idea of game balance which is greatly dependent on the DM. The DM's in our campaigns make very balanced encounters that are a challenge even for characters with higher stats than average.
The Paladins in our group are more powerful for the reasons I have stated multiple times, which apparently a few people claim don't occur that often in their games.
1. Immunity to fear: Fear may not come up all that often, but neither does a situation where you need to do much more than whack a villain. When fear does come up, it is usually a pretty serious encounter. Often the other melee classes do not make their fear saves, which leaves the Paladin to hold the line while they run. It has happened multiple times on key encounters in our campaigns.
2. Will Saves: The Paladins usually reasonable wisdom and Divine Grace ability come together to make them a great deal more resistant to Will based spells and supernatural abilities. Once again, they may only come up on certain encounters, but usually they are key encounters. That hold or charm spell delays the other melee classes until the cleric or wizard can bail them out, while the Paladin just keeps on fighting.
3. Downtime healing: Sometimes the cleric's healing spells are exhausted. A warrior capable of healing themselves and others with wands and scrolls is very helpful. You never know when the cleric is going to caught up doing something else, dead, or unconcious.
4. The Paladin Mount: We allow mounts other than warhorses per the rules in the DMG. Most of the Paladins take flying mounts which allow them to engage enemies most melee classes are unable to engage. Paladin mounts are a huge advantage if the DM allows for other than a horse. If the Dm allows only for a horse, then this advantage is not as great. Though still a great deal better than nothing.
Such Paladin capabilities come together to make them the best melee tank in terms of power and capabilities. It is not like they make other melee classes obsolete, but they definitely stand out in our campaigns.
Paladins are a strong class. They receive alot of abilities that are useable at key times during an adventure against the enemy that adventuring parties most often face: evil. A solid smite at the right time really lets them shine. Immunity to dragon or necromancer fear is a definitely plus in the those big, epic dragon battles.
Majere said:
Flawed? How so? Because a Paladin can use a fifth stat? He still must give up one of those other stats for that good charisma. My system hardly guarantees that all 5 stats will be good. It works little different than the point based system, where fighters often use Charisma and Intelligence as a dump stat. Fighters usually stack Str, Dex, and Con, and Paladins usually stack Str, Con, and Cha. A Paladin gives up Dexterity for a better Charisma. A Paladin can be powerful with three good stats: Str, Con, and Charisma. Wisdom need only max out at 12 or 14 for maximum spell benefit, and the lack of Dexterity is more than made up for by the good saves provided by high Charisma.
Your assertion is flawed. You have little idea of game balance which is greatly dependent on the DM. The DM's in our campaigns make very balanced encounters that are a challenge even for characters with higher stats than average.
The Paladins in our group are more powerful for the reasons I have stated multiple times, which apparently a few people claim don't occur that often in their games.
1. Immunity to fear: Fear may not come up all that often, but neither does a situation where you need to do much more than whack a villain. When fear does come up, it is usually a pretty serious encounter. Often the other melee classes do not make their fear saves, which leaves the Paladin to hold the line while they run. It has happened multiple times on key encounters in our campaigns.
2. Will Saves: The Paladins usually reasonable wisdom and Divine Grace ability come together to make them a great deal more resistant to Will based spells and supernatural abilities. Once again, they may only come up on certain encounters, but usually they are key encounters. That hold or charm spell delays the other melee classes until the cleric or wizard can bail them out, while the Paladin just keeps on fighting.
3. Downtime healing: Sometimes the cleric's healing spells are exhausted. A warrior capable of healing themselves and others with wands and scrolls is very helpful. You never know when the cleric is going to caught up doing something else, dead, or unconcious.
4. The Paladin Mount: We allow mounts other than warhorses per the rules in the DMG. Most of the Paladins take flying mounts which allow them to engage enemies most melee classes are unable to engage. Paladin mounts are a huge advantage if the DM allows for other than a horse. If the Dm allows only for a horse, then this advantage is not as great. Though still a great deal better than nothing.
Such Paladin capabilities come together to make them the best melee tank in terms of power and capabilities. It is not like they make other melee classes obsolete, but they definitely stand out in our campaigns.
Paladins are a strong class. They receive alot of abilities that are useable at key times during an adventure against the enemy that adventuring parties most often face: evil. A solid smite at the right time really lets them shine. Immunity to dragon or necromancer fear is a definitely plus in the those big, epic dragon battles.
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