Paladin Design Goals ... WotC Blog

But you and I are modern and we're talking chivalry. That we can talk about it, and non-D&D gamers too, shows the word still gets usage and so there must be a shared definition. The way I see it, if chivalry is about anything it is about ideals. Ideals of honour, ideals of virtue, courtly love etc.

Oh I can see a certain disdain towards the masses creeping into the code, although I'd treat with care such a definition. It sounds like a definition that served a particular purpose in history. Certainly it is not a publicly acknowledged ideal if only for its ugliness.

These are spaces for non-LG paladin to exist within a single class. Become disdainful towards the weak, that's the good-evil axis moving. Over-indulge in personal glory at the expense of duty, that's the law-chaos axis moving.

Unfortunately I've never really had players that wanted to get into much more than a casual pseudo-historical mind-set. Alignments were really just a guide to me as their DM of how they intended to play. After character creation it only really mattered for the odd spell. I guess I'm fortunate that alignment has never caused any issues that I can recall.

Oh, and I am putting in Orc young and a good Vampire in the upcoming campaign with a paladin PC. Not to screw with them mind, but to give them a moral work out in between all that honour and glory.
 

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But you and I are modern and we're talking chivalry. That we can talk about it, and non-D&D gamers too, shows the word still gets usage and so there must be a shared definition.
A couple of comments.

First, in my view Wittgenstein and Putnam have fairly convincingly shown that common usage doesn't depend on shared definitions. In the case of "chivalry", I think we rely heavily on shared paradigms. For posters on this board, I would think that Aragorn from the LotR would be one of those paradigms. Perhaps also Arthruian romances, but different people have come to those through many differing paths.

Second, that anthropology and history are possible shows that modern people can grasp, to some extent at least, values they don't share. And I also think that some values can change register - I don't think chivalry is an ethical value for many modern people, but the current fondness for fantasy and mediaeval romance suggests that it has some role as a type of aesthetic value. This may be related to nostalgia and anti-modern reaction, but I'm not sure that's all that it is.

The way I see it, if chivalry is about anything it is about ideals. Ideals of honour, ideals of virtue, courtly love etc.

Oh I can see a certain disdain towards the masses creeping into the code, although I'd treat with care such a definition. It sounds like a definition that served a particular purpose in history. Certainly it is not a publicly acknowledged ideal if only for its ugliness.
I don't think it's seen as especially ugly by its proponents. Aristotle happily argued that many people - including but not limited to women and non-Greeks - are slaves by nature. Roman law takes for granted that justice is each getting his/her due, and that what is due to one of the worthy is quite different from what is due to a slave.

One characteristic of the meek is that they lack honour. Although they may exhibit a certain dignity fitting their station. (In AD&D's UA, this is displayed by the prohibition on leather armour, polearms etc that cavaliers are subject to. Most samurai gaming systems with some sort of honour mechanic will likewise reflect this eg your samurai will lose honour if s/he ends up doing manual labour.)

These are spaces for non-LG paladin to exist within a single class. Become disdainful towards the weak, that's the good-evil axis moving.
But this already reframes the issue. The chivalrous person is not disdainful of the weak. S/he gives them their due. It's just that what they're due is different from what an honourable person is due.

The basic issue, as I see it, is this. Chivalry is not an egalitarian code. And Lawful Good, in D&D, is defined in egalitarian terms. (Although exactly what is to be equal is obscure - sometimes welfare, sometimes rights, sometimes regard, sometimes more than one of these at the same time.)

Over-indulge in personal glory at the expense of duty, that's the law-chaos axis moving.
Again, part of the issue here is that part of being a chivalrous person is honouring one's duty to oneself, and that includes a certain sort of duty of glory. It is not befitting an honourble, chivalrous person to hang back and live in the shadow.

A character like Galahad might perhaps be seen as a limit on this - but even Galahad is in fact glorious in what he does.

Anyway, I still don't see what the alignment classification is adding to our characterisation of the chivalrous knight. All we get is the risk of the chivalrous Lancelot being deemed evil and chaotic because he killed 10 knights, including friedns, without good reason, on something of a sudden whim. Either we gerrymander LG to include this - which is silly - or we let chivalry be our ideal and drop the alignment nonsense.

Also - a monk is necessarily Lawful in D&D, and yet pursues a type of personal glory/self-realisation. So your contrast of duty vs self is already under pressure within the game system itself. As it happens, he question of individual vs society, and the proper role of the monastic pursuit of enlightenment (is it selfish?), is a real issue in Buddhist philosophy - it underlies, in part, the notion of the Bodhisattva, and a good discussion of it can be found in Ken Jones, "The Social Fact of Buddhism". You can't make what is a live question for serious practitioners of and thinkers about the doctrine go away just by slapping the "lawful" label on the monk. Either you just ignore it (as in a light superhero game), or you make it a serious focs of play, in which case the alignment labels add nothing.

Unfortunately I've never really had players that wanted to get into much more than a casual pseudo-historical mind-set. Alignments were really just a guide to me as their DM of how they intended to play. After character creation it only really mattered for the odd spell. I guess I'm fortunate that alignment has never caused any issues that I can recall.
Alignment in that sense is harmless enough, although you'll get the odd weird thing like an angel and a PC sharing some common vulnerability to a demon's attack, despite seeming pretty different in the way their moral life plays out.

But that is not how the game presents alignment - especially not classic D&D, where alignment is part of the constraints on good RPGing of one's PC, and even in contemporary D&D, which tends to assume that the PCs are all of good alignment or good-inclined (but also ready to kill at the slightest provocation!), as if that actually meant something.
 

The term chivalry has gone through a lot of change since it was first coined, so an historical analysis needs to settle on a definition at a given point in time and place. My definition rests in the current age and aspects that offend modern moral sensibilities are not considered chivalric - they are no longer (if they ever were) ideal. The bar has been raised. I suspect that I'm not alone in taking this approach.

Interesting point over egalitarianism. A social class hierarchy can be a good thing should it be based on meritocracy with more or less equal opportunity for social mobility. Historically accurate feudalism doesn't give much in this way, although in earlier medieval periods knighthood on the battlefield was more common and there was always the mercantile/religious path options - limited as they were. But then, do most adventures exist in such a world? Not in my experience, usually with some contemporary values and social structure. That can't be helped, the shared world of the imagination needs to speak from and to all the players gathered.

So is the lawful good alignment egalitarian? Well maybe. It could well be patriarchal for example, depending on where the slider is within each alignment. For me the key thing here is within a given alignment there is a lot of wiggle room.

Is the ideal chivalric code egalitarian? Well again, I find myself agreeing with you that is not, as its hierarchical nature has different etiquette expectations under different social circumstances.

I'm not sure the role play tool of alignment is of use for expressing the concept of egalitarianism. It seems to apply across the good-evil axis because letting someone fail and starve to death could be to treat them with economic equality of opportunity - without regard to outcome. On the other hand it seems to rest easiest within the lawful alignment because it seems bound to social structure.

Real world Buddhism, just like many real world things of great sophistication are hard to place in the alignment system. Is democracy destabilizing or stabilizing to society? Both, so is that chaos or law? You're right to point out the philosophical inadequacies of alignment due to its lack of specificness. The terms are too vague to be of any use to scholars, but then it wasn't invented for their use.

Since 3e it has been a roleplay tool of flagged intentions, and occasionally interacting with certain spells and rules. My approach is not to over-think things in the game and just go with what makes sense at a broader level. Focusing on alignment system at the detailed level basically cuts it to bits but replaces it with what? Without an alignment short-hand system I'd require a more extensive back-ground write up from my players to get the same benefit - good luck me getting that...

Anyhoo, time marches on. Tell me pemerton, in a hypothetical game that used the alignment rule-set, what Alignment components if any would the Paladin possess?
 



So is the lawful good alignment egalitarian? Well maybe.
Gygax is unequivocal about this in the AD&D books.

From the 3E SRD:

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.[/quote]

The definition of "good" suggests to me the basic outlook of contemporary liberal, egalitarian, human rights morality. By that definition, Lancelot is not good - he casually takes the lives of his friends - and nor are many D&D PCs - they casually take the lives of their enemies, without any concern for the dignity of those enemies.

I think there is a basic incoherence in trying to apply this contemporary moral outlook to a game that presupposes tropes - like knights, castles, more-or-less absolute monarchies, the divine right of rulership etc - which it was the whole point of the enlightenment outlook to overthrow!

Again from the SRD:

"A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice.​

So are Hayek and Nozick Lawful Good? What is the relationship, for a Lawful Good person, between need, charity and justice? In his famous paper on "Famine, Affluence and Morality" Peter Singer invokes Aquinas, but in his citation of Aquinas leaves out what I think is the most important bit (from Summa Theologica, II-II, Question 66, Article 7):

But because there are many in necessity, and they cannot all be helped from the same source, it is left to the initiative of individuals to make provision from their own wealth, for the assistance of those in need. If, however, there is such urgent and evident necessity that there is clearly an immediate need of necessary sustenance – if, for example, a person is in immediate danger of physical privation, and there is no other way of satisfying his need – then he may take what is necessary from another person’s goods, either openly or by stealth. Nor is this, strictly speaking, fraud or robbery.​

So does a Lawful Good PC condone robbery and self help? Normally I would have though that's the domain of Chaotic Good. Which is to say, in my view, alignment is hopeless!

Real world Buddhism, just like many real world things of great sophistication are hard to place in the alignment system. Is democracy destabilizing or stabilizing to society? Both, so is that chaos or law? You're right to point out the philosophical inadequacies of alignment due to its lack of specificness. The terms are too vague to be of any use to scholars, but then it wasn't invented for their use.
The only use I can see for alignment is to contribute to colour and setting. Which means that B/X and 4e alignment, which do just this, are tolerable at least. Whereas AD&D/3E alignment, which purports to be a comprehensive scheme of moral classification, is useless.​
 

Gygax is unequivocal about this in the AD&D books.

From the 3E SRD:
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

The definition of "good" suggests to me the basic outlook of contemporary liberal, egalitarian, human rights morality. By that definition, Lancelot is not good - he casually takes the lives of his friends - and nor are many D&D PCs - they casually take the lives of their enemies, without any concern for the dignity of those enemies.
< . . . snip . . . >


Nice SRD quote; but Gary Gygax didn't write it.
Gygax didn't even write the 2E DMG; David 'Zeb' Cook wrote that. (Gary Gygax had been kicked out of TSR before the 2E DMG came out.)

Gygax had this to say in the 1E DMG (p. 23):
"Good and Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of AD&D, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant."

Note that Gygax's version contains no mention of altruism, dignity, or sacrifice. Rather, it quotes the U.S. Declaration of Independence nearlyverbatim: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. (That's inspired by Thomas Jefferson, not by Thomas Aquinas.)

This certainly is a form of "human rights" morality; but it clearly isn't either liberal or egalitarian.​
 

Nice SRD quote; but Gary Gygax didn't write it.
I know. He wrote the AD&D PHB and DMG. My point was that there is an egalitarian element to the definition of "good" in both AD&D and 3E.

Gygax had this to say in the 1E DMG (p. 23):
"Good and Evil: Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of AD&D, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness; purpose is the determinant."

Note that Gygax's version contains no mention of altruism, dignity, or sacrifice. Rather, it quotes the U.S. Declaration of Independence nearlyverbatim: Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. (That's inspired by Thomas Jefferson, not by Thomas Aquinas.)

This certainly is a form of "human rights" morality; but it clearly isn't either liberal or egalitarian.
Given that the Decleration of Independence states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", I think it is pretty uncontroversially putting forward an egalitarian moral perspective. Gygax's version of it does too - he takes all humans/creatures to be equal in respect of their rights enjoyment.

Gygax does also, either in the PHB or DMG (I don't have either in front of me), characterises LG as being concerned with the greatest happiness of the greatest number, which is a pretty standard formulation of utilitarianism, and also egalitarian insofar as it takes the welfare of all to be of equal moral concern. It also mandates sacrifice, at least when that sacrifice can generate more welfare than it costs.

Whether good and LG are conceived in terms of an egalitarianism of rights, or of welfare, or on some other egalitarian model, they are not suitable to model a chivalric ideal. Enlightenment morality will render pre-enlightenment codes (like chivalry) immoral and obscurantist. That's the point of the enligtenment.
 

Ok let's say that egalitarianism is part of the definition of good, and thus the good folk are slowly working towards modern values. That's fair enough given the the proof of real human history (and we do broadly consider ourselves good people). I'm on-board so far.

Before we go down the road of assumed parallels let's give a bit of credit to feudalism, because in a period of our history it was more or less the best form of governance available. Provide service, get protection. Church promotes chivalry and the warrior class behave, somewhat. Not such a bad deal given the threat of violence and lack of real alternates. Enter the undead, dragons and what have you and the path of development becomes open to the imagination - it is possible feudalism could be the preferred system, full stop!

Regardless, we also have conservatism to consider. Umm, conserving the established order probably fits best with lawful however let's not be cynical and let's say that is done out of a genuine belief, with proof enough, for the greater good. Conservatism is great in that because it's about the status quo it could be egalitarian or rigidly class based, depending on what currently exists.

In my meandering way, what I'm getting at is that conflicting ideas can find themselves in the same alignment while threads of a single idea can be found scattered across the axis.

So then my questions become what practical use is alignment, what message is it trying to convey, and at what point does its usefulness end? To get answers relevant to 5E we'll need a new thread - if people are interested?

Ok, coming back to the good stuff.

By the sounds of it the tale of Lancelot and the 10 Knights sounds a tragic waste springing from all combatants involved having honour to excess and refused to yield. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt (I prefer to do that) and say all were LG Paladins to start with. There was a misunderstanding of sorts (11 failed diplomacy/sense motive checks!) and a challenge was given that noone was prepared to back down from. At this point they're still LG right? I mean they're not mercilessly ravaging the countryside, they will grant mercy if someone yields, I suspect they'll even take the vanquished to their Liege lord for fair justice - which probably would've sorted the mess out. The battle breaks out and noone yields and Lancelot wins. My take on that is a bunch of LG paladins (who dumped on wisdom) who unwittingly let themselves kill 10 of their number. They're all LG but CE was the winner on the day.

The desperate LG thief. That's got a bit of hidden trickiness to it but let's have a go (although I'm already feeling guilty of a thread derail). Let's assume a LG mother and wife. Desperate times she finds herself with a sick husband and starving children. She spots an opportunity to steal a loaf of bread, and being sane she does so. Does she change alignment? Well I don't think so, because she felt forced to commit an act that went against her nature. She feels bad about it, she wants to make amends, she's worried about the example she's given her children. If on the other hand she say develops a snatching habit, rationalizes it as just desserts, and continues doing it after the crisis passes, well there would be grounds to say she's moved a bit on law-chaos axis. Heck if she grew embittered, perhaps after losing her family to starvation, she could move on the good-evil axis if the thieving had a reckless disregard to the harm it could do.
 

I know. He wrote the AD&D PHB and DMG. My point was that there is an egalitarian element to the definition of "good" in both AD&D and 3E.

He wrote the 1E AD&D DMG, not the 2E AD&D DMG. Are they identical?

Given that the Decleration of Independence states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", I think it is pretty uncontroversially putting forward an egalitarian moral perspective. Gygax's version of it does too - he takes all humans/creatures to be equal in respect of their rights enjoyment.
I would ask "egalitarian in what sense," but I think I'm already getting too close to real-world politics, which is verboten here on EN World. (Short version: Is it "rights enjoyment" or is it "rights possession?" Possessing equal rights is not the same as enjoying equal results.)

Gygax does also, either in the PHB or DMG (I don't have either in front of me), characterises LG as being concerned with the greatest happiness of the greatest number, which is a pretty standard formulation of utilitarianism, and also egalitarian insofar as it takes the welfare of all to be of equal moral concern. It also mandates sacrifice, at least when that sacrifice can generate more welfare than it costs.
That's the thorn in the soup, to mangle a phrase. While Jeremy Bentham may have indicated that the rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness mandate sacrifice, other thinkers disagreed, saying instead that the taking-by-force of benefits from one person and giving those same benefits to another person transgressed the rights of the first person, thereby reducing overall welfare instead of increasing it. I don't want to go into specifics here; that's a topic for some other board, not for EN World.

Since you don't have the AD&D DMG in front of you, I'll type in Gary Gygax's description of Lawful Good here, for reference (again, 1E DMG, page 23):

Lawful Good: Creatures of lawful good alignment view the cosmos with varying degrees of lawfulness or desire for good. They are convinced that order and law are absolutely necessary to assure good, and that good is best defined as whatever brings the most benefit to the greater number of decent, thinking creatures and the least woe to the rest.

Whether good and LG are conceived in terms of an egalitarianism of rights, or of welfare, or on some other egalitarian model, they are not suitable to model a chivalric ideal. Enlightenment morality will render pre-enlightenment codes (like chivalry) immoral and obscurantist. That's the point of the enligtenment.
Right. I wasn't supporting a chivalric ideal. I was clarifying which things Gygax himself had said and which he had not.

Also, I had already understood the point of the Enlightenment; but thanks again for mentioning it, anyway.

What I was saying was that Gygax himself never mentioned "altrusism," "dignity," or "sacrifice" in his definitions. Those words were later additions to the D&D rules, certainly in 3E (as you quoted in the SRD) and possibly earlier in 2E AD&D, though I cannot verify the latter as I don't have a copy of that version.

Bringing in the subject of egalitarianism to conflate the ideas of Locke and Bentham may be a unifying trend in modern philosophy, but I think it hides their differences.
And, with that, I'm leaving this discussion: I have already transgressed on the "no real-world politics" rule enough for one thread. . . .:)
 

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