D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

[firstkyne]

Sorry for the hyperbole. I think that you made a big miscalculation, and that both you and the player dropped the ball. Communication is key. You failed to communicate that this could be solved with words, and the player failed to state a "Are you aware that this is a character ending moment and I feel like you are picking on me?" (Because by not having understood that this was winnable that's what he felt). Instead he reacted humanely to the perception of being picked on and went with "Screw this, I'm effed as it is. I won't engage the situation anymore".

Best chance going forward is to talk this up and then forget it happened. Yes he did something he should fall for, but that is the result of frustration with a misunderstanding. I think you could just retcon it all as the dragon not being a dragon but a test from the paladin's deity, while the paladin saw through it and called the bluff. Everybody happy!

Yep, it was a heat of the moment ad lib that went really badly. Your assessment is on the money, and through I can't use your exact suggestion for a rencon I think some will be done, after a chat with the player.

 

[Maxperson]

Would you let a druid wear metal armor just once to save their lives without penalty?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes he did something he should fall for, but that is the result of frustration with a misunderstanding.

Not according to the rules. The paladin was not willing in this, so he cannot fall by RAW.

 

[Yardiff]

Yeah, QUIT MAKING ME AGREE WITH @Maxperson. It's giving me a complex.

I'm not sure I agree with that. While Paladins certainly have their oaths, I doubt that their oaths are taken to such extremes that they will needlessly sacrifice themselves for zero gain. Again, that's a little too lawful stupid for me.

It's not like Captain America jumped out off the train to save Bucky was it? What's the difference? He could have jumped and maybe saved Bucky - he had done more spectacular things in the past. But, instead, he watches Bucky disappear into the snow and then gets on with the mission.

Once we've agreed that there is a point where the paladin has "done enough" to "reasonably" determine if this is a no-win situation, all we're doing after that is haggling over the price.

The problem with movie examples is that they don't always fit, like this example of the train scene. If this had been a free form RP and not a movie the player of Cap might have jumped to save Bucky but it wasn't it was a scripted scene that the writers had set up to have Bucky appear to die so he could be brought back later for Winter Soldier.

 

[5ekyu]

The reason the dragon said the paladin could live was because the paladin rolled a pretty strong persuasion roll when explaining to the dragon that he had trespassed on its territory because he was completing a world-shaking mission, the success of which would also benefit the dragon (by ridding it of the great undead dragon that had recently ousted it from it's previous territory.

I thought the player would get that this was a great moment to push the 'I am on a mission from God! Mess with me, mess with my God!' angle. I mean, even the coincidentally climactic background music pointed that way, I thought!

But he just thought 'F*** you, your picking on me', I think. I really don't.

Thanks for your advice. I've been playing for 33 years and made a mistake, I know that.

And to those who have been writing pretty venemous stuff as if I'm one of those dick GMs who just torture players, you know, you can fill the gaps.

I think this helps clear up some stuff.

One of the issues folks were reading into this was the issues of why the drsgon made an offer at all. What that implied about the dituation.

Another was the paladin "doing nothing."

Here we now can see both of those resulted from an attempt after cornering and a " pretty strong persuasion" result to get to the offer to let thenpaladin walk if the other was given.

Thanks for that info. I am sure for dome that might change some conclusions.

 

[Hussar]

The problem with movie examples is that they don't always fit, like this example of the train scene. If this had been a free form RP and not a movie the player of Cap might have jumped to save Bucky but it wasn't it was a scripted scene that the writers had set up to have Bucky appear to die so he could be brought back later for Winter Soldier.

There are a number of posters here who are arguing that death before dishonor is the only way to play a paladin. Thus, Cap, by their metric, violated his personal code by not jumping after Bucky. Yet, funnily enough, no one wants to talk about that.

But, again, with the additional information that's come out here, I think I'm fairly happy with my interpretation. The paladin did not willingly violate his oath, and ,frankly, any "punishment" from the DM will just seem like dogpiling. It will not accomplish whatever it is the DM hopes it will accomplish.

 

[pemerton]

There are a number of posters here who are arguing that death before dishonor is the only way to play a paladin. Thus, Cap, by their metric, violated his personal code by not jumping after Bucky. Yet, funnily enough, no one wants to talk about that.

I'm completely happy to talk about that. There's a clear difference between sacrificing someone and not rescuing someone. And there's a clear difference between the duties owed to an injured person in one's care, and duties owed to someone who is able to take care of him-/herself but nevertheless would benefit from assistance.

Cap trying to help Bucky in those circumstances would be superogatory. Not sacrificing those in your care for your own self preservation is a duty.

It doesn't seem that complicated to me.

 

[aramis erak]

How would you handle this. If he becomes an oathbreaker, does that replace his previous paladin levels, so he becomes a 7th level oathbreaker?
Is that too punishing?
If he becomes an oathbreaker, I plan to talk to him about taking a vow to find a way back into his gods good graces, such as by returning to slay the dragon AND find resurrection for the dead man.

In the olden days, he just became a stock fighter, losing all the special paladin bonuses... and if he had an exceptional mount, bu-bye! And lost 10% XP for the session.

If he made proper atonement, he MIGHT get back the paladin abilities.

But, since you mentioned oathbreakers, I assume this is a newer edition... if he can find a suitable patron, sure, flip him to oathbreaker. Otherwise, he's a paladin with no spells, no lay-on of hands, and no ,magical mount...
"Have fun storming the castle!"

 

[Hussar]

I'm completely happy to talk about that. There's a clear difference between sacrificing someone and not rescuing someone. And there's a clear difference between the duties owed to an injured person in one's care, and duties owed to someone who is able to take care of him-/herself but nevertheless would benefit from assistance.

Cap trying to help Bucky in those circumstances would be superogatory. Not sacrificing those in your care for your own self preservation is a duty.

It doesn't seem that complicated to me.

Yeah, no thanks. The fact that you would phrase it as "sacrificing those in your care for your own self preservation" means that we are simply not going to agree on this. Sorry, but, no. The paladin in no way "sacrificed" someone in his care. He was given zero choice. Do this or die. Dying would accomplish nothing and would prevent the paladin form later making some sort of attempt to fix the situation - either by tithing to the widow, possibly working to resurrect the dead guy, or any number of other options.

I'm kinda burned out watching people paint this in what I see as blindingly stupid light and praising utter cowardice. Living is the hard choice. Dying is the cowards way out.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm completely happy to talk about that. There's a clear difference between sacrificing someone and not rescuing someone. And there's a clear difference between the duties owed to an injured person in one's care, and duties owed to someone who is able to take care of him-/herself but nevertheless would benefit from assistance.

Cap trying to help Bucky in those circumstances would be superogatory. Not sacrificing those in your care for your own self preservation is a duty.

It doesn't seem that complicated to me.

So there's no duty to a comrade in arms during a war. Every man for himself. Got it. Also, Bucky who can't fly and isn't invulnerable, was able to take care of himself while falling to his death. Interesting take on that scene. I would have called Bucky's situation hopeless, myself, but apparently I must be wrong since it isn't that complicated.