Paladin problems

[IcyCool]

Thanks to everyone who's posted so far. I've sent off an email, we'll see how it is received.

One thing I did want to address though:

Or, instead you could try and deal with it realistically.

Paladin: I draw my sword and attack

Inn Patrons: *screaming and taking cover*

Heh. That exact scenario isn't what happened when I was GMing, but it did happen while I was playing. I'm a big fan of "realistic" consequences to your actions, and the detect and smite style pally I GM'd was much more manageable than that particular (shortlived) character.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

More likely the local law would just take the gnoll into custody with a somewhat puzzled expression on their face, thank the paladin for what he's done, let the fuzzy bugger stew in a cell for a day or so, then tell it the date of its execution.

When it comes to taking prisoners, this is key. I'm currently playing a 9th-level paladin, and he's only taken a single prisoner in his entire career. Why? Because the enemies he fights, if captured, would just be executed later by the townsfolk. When that's the case, all the paladin is doing is passing the buck, keeping his own hands clean by having others do the killing.

My paladin doesn't believe in passing the buck. If a man has to die, my paladin is ready and willing to kill him. So long as he does it himself, he can assure that the man dies as quickly and painlessly as possible. And the onus of the death falls squarely on his shoulders, where it belongs.

As a side note, he ended up killing the one man he took prisoner as well. He was an Imperial soldier, who are automatically under a death sentence the moment they enter the Free Hold. He did offer to have a letter delivered to the man's family, though, and have his body returned to them. It was a small mercy, but the only mercy he could offer.

 

[menotyou]

a decent reading of the paladin code in the phb solves all problems.

but you said vassel of bahamut, thats in the book of exalted deeds right ? exalted is a huge pain in the keister and if you plan to allow players to have exalted stuff then you desrve what you get. read the first 14 pages and brace for impact because an exalted character is required to try redeem all evil. everyone should get a chance, and even if they betray that chance over and over again, exalted peps have to give em another

now that i think on it, given your description an exalted paladin should promtly turn him self in for execution. hes knowingly violating the law.

whoops, bai bai paladin-ness

 

[IcyCool]

a decent reading of the paladin code in the phb solves all problems.

but you said vassel of bahamut, thats in the book of exalted deeds right ? exalted is a huge pain in the keister and if you plan to allow players to have exalted stuff then you desrve what you get. read the first 14 pages and brace for impact because an exalted character is required to try redeem all evil. everyone should get a chance, and even if they betray that chance over and over again, exalted peps have to give em another

now that i think on it, given your description an exalted paladin should promtly turn him self in for execution. hes knowingly violating the law.

whoops, bai bai paladin-ness

To be fair, I did say that I was allowing things from the BoED, but not using their definition of "good" or "exalted". That offer was flatly refused. I'm curious though, how is this Paladin violating the law?

 

[menotyou]

any lay on hands, any spell, any holy symbol he has is an open display of religion. prly could be argued that summning and riding his mount = display of religion.

to hide his releigion is dshonrable, i dont have exalted deeds in front of me but dunt he haveta "bring hope" and "cast good spells" and "worship dietys" to keep his goodness stuff

paladins cant be deceptive, and hiding your religion is deceptive, definatly at least fitting the "paladins cannot lie" part of their code

 

[IcyCool]

any lay on hands, any spell, any holy symbol he has is an open display of religion. prly could be argued that summning and riding his mount = display of religion.

to hide his releigion is dshonrable, i dont have exalted deeds in front of me but dunt he haveta "bring hope" and "cast good spells" and "worship dietys" to keep his goodness stuff

paladins cant be deceptive, and hiding your religion is deceptive, definatly at least fitting the "paladins cannot lie" part of their code

Perhaps you are thinking of the word "open" differently than I. By open I mean public. Standing in the marketplace and preaching the "good word", running around town with your holy symbol swingin' free for all to see, etc. He is welcome to his personal beliefs, and if he wishes to share them with others in a private setting, he is not breaking the law. By working in private, he can easily "bring hope", "cast good spells", and "worship deities."

I don't see where the dishonesty thing that you are arguing comes in though.

 

[menotyou]

prolly 12 years of catholic schooling.

a holy crusader doesnt skulk in the shadows, eh practices religion openly. out in the open. not hiding his faith. thats more the ng clerics job.

when i think paladin i think sturm brightblade. even though he wasnt allways a paladin per se, he never hid his faith. bold, just, honorable and faithfull to his ideals

every paladin ability that is extrdiary or supernatural is a divine gift and an open display of religion. iirc that means aura of courage, divine grace, lay on hands, detect evil, aura of good, divine health.

all of em are displays of divine power, religion at its very distilled essence

 

[IcyCool]

a holy crusader doesnt skulk in the shadows, eh practices religion openly. out in the open. not hiding his faith. thats more the ng clerics job.

I didn't see that in the Paladin's code, but I may have missed it.

when i think paladin i think sturm brightblade. even though he wasnt allways a paladin per se, he never hid his faith. bold, just, honorable and faithfull to his ideals

Many people have that same image of a Paladin. It is not the ONLY ideal though.

every paladin ability that is extrdiary or supernatural is a divine gift and an open display of religion. iirc that means aura of courage, divine grace, lay on hands, detect evil, aura of good, divine health.

all of em are displays of divine power, religion at its very distilled essence

Good point on the Aura of Courage, but as it is an invisible effect, I don't think it violates the law. Lay on hands would be the only visible, open thing the Paladin could do, and there's no reason why he couldn't do it in private.

As a side note, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. It's difficult for a Paladin to exist in this area of the campaign world, but not impossible.

 

[menotyou]

sure if by "open display" you mean visual

in reality it seems like someone with the vaulted "lawfull" alignment would view the law in the strictest sense possible. theyd wanna the interestest of the framer at hart

someone with a neutral or chaotic alignment would try to make the laws bend to fit them, like your doing

thats not what a paladin would do. thats the sort of weasly thing that a nuetral good or chaotic good person would do to justify what they do.

 

[IcyCool]

sure if by "open display" you mean visual

Well, of course. How else can you determine guilt? Otherwise you could wind up with people claiming that so and so is "favored by some power" and is obviously violating the law. Sort of like the Salem witch trials.

If that is the sort of things you want your paladins espousing, knock yourself out. Me, I'd prefer good characters.

The law is shoddy, and solid gray. No black and white about it. It is intentionally so. It leaves plenty of room for some Paladins to work among the people, bringing hope, and for other Paladins to choose to turn themselves in as "criminals." Oddly enough, neither lose their Paladin-hood. Paradox is the name of the game, just ask Eadric of Deorham