Paladin should kill the Warlord and take his stuff!

[rounser]

NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG HERE LET ME SHOW YOU (General)
You can interrupt any Warlord special ability, such as an attack which opens up the opponent to an attack of opportunity. You grab the weapon or interrupt the comment to "improve on it".
Prerequisites: Charisma 7 or less, 1 or more levels in Devil's Advocate.
Benefit: You spend 1d4 rounds bickering with the Warlord PC, during which time neither of you can perform any other action, and the real heroes get on with the fight.

 

[rounser]

I don't understand how a class named bard singing "once more into the breach" is okay with you, but a class named warlord growling "once more into the breach" is a disaster.

I think you've got me there. It's the flavour - the bard is portrayed as a fop or swashbuckler, whereas the warlord seems like a bully or drill sergeant from the flavour of the name. And by default that seems to be how people are going to play it - you mentioned "growl" for the warlord version, for instance.

That doesn't stop someone playing the bard as an abrasive bully and the warlord as a silvertongued pansy, it's just that the default flavour matters. IMO the name is a big step in the wrong direction if they really want to portray "support".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

NO YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG HERE LET ME SHOW YOU (General)
You can interrupt any Warlord special ability, such as an attack which opens up the opponent to an attack of opportunity. You grab the weapon or interrupt the comment to "improve on it".
Prerequisites: Charisma 7 or less, 1 or more levels in Devil's Advocate.
Benefit: You spend 1d4 rounds bickering with the Warlord PC, during which time neither of you can perform any other action, and the real heroes get on with the fight.

Have you been playing Star Wars SAGA? Because there's two abilities similar to that there, too!

I think you've got me there. It's the flavour - the bard is portrayed as a fop or swashbuckler, whereas the warlord seems like a bully or drill sergeant from the flavour of the name. And by default that seems to be how people are going to play it - you mentioned "growl" for the warlord version, for instance.

That doesn't stop someone playing the bard as a bully and the warlord as a pansy, it's just that the default flavour matters.

I think that concern only applies to classes with restrictive flavor. The warlord's flavor isn't particularly restrictive, even if it tends towards (ex-)military characters.

In any event, I can't picture Caesar growling in combat.

 

[rounser]

Have you been playing Star Wars SAGA? Because there's two abilities similar to that there, too!

That sort of fits Star Wars, though, because it's occasionally screwball. You can imagine Han grabbing the controls off of Chewy, or vice versa. The Grey Mouser trying to grab Fafhrd's sword off him, on the other hand, is likely to earn him a punch in the guts. Han on the other hand would just say something about "furry oaf" and Chewy would just "mrawr".

You can get screwball fantasy, sure, but as the default flavour it seems to conflict with all that heroics stuff, unless you're going for irony or laughs. Seems to have "would be good in a supplement, but not the core" written all over it.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Re: the growl, I was in a production of Henry V in college. The actor began his "Once more into the breach" as a beaten-down, tired, wounded, dirty, growling Henry collapsed in a heap with his sundered shield beside him. Of course, by the end he was standing on top of a pile of collapsed wall, sword in hand, calling out in a clear voice. It was pretty great.

And then there's Leonidas. I hereby admit that my first 4E character will be a spear-wielding, shield-bearing, warlord inspired by the character of Leonidas as portrayed in the movie 300.

 

[rounser]

Re: the growl, I was in a production of Henry V in college. The actor began his "Once more into the breach" as a beaten-down, tired, wounded, dirty, growling Henry collapsed in a heap with his sundered shield beside him. Of course, by the end he was standing on top of a pile of collapsed wall, sword in hand, calling out in a clear voice. It was pretty great.

Especially the bit when he went all White Raven on the French and their candyasses shortly afterward. Again, "Warlord as sergeant" or "Warlord as White Raven"? If it's both, I think we can go with "Warlord as incoherent".

 

[Zaruthustran]

Especially the bit when he went all White Raven on their candyasses shortly afterward. Again, "Warlord as sergeant" or "Warlord as White Raven"? If it's both, I think we can go with "Warlord as incoherent".

This comment makes no sense to me.

 

[rounser]

And then there's Leonidas. I hereby admit that my first 4E character will be a spear-wielding, shield-bearing, warlord inspired by the character of Leonidas as portrayed in the movie 300.

I think we're leaning toward a King character class. 1st level King is more ridiculous than 1st level Warlord, but not by much.

 

[rounser]

This comment makes no sense to me.

We've got the claim a page back that the warlord isn't shouting out inspiration or tactics, but rather using his blade in a tricky way that means others can thwack better. I'm saying which is it, because if it's both then that's even less of a coherent archetype than either individually would be.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I think we're leaning toward a King character class. 1st level King is more ridiculous than 1st level Warlord, but not by much.

Leonidas was badass because he could fight and he could lead men. He wasn't badass because he had a fancy title and political authority.