Paladin thread, nuff said

[FreeTheSlaves]

Well, in my campaign, you would be trying to find a cleric so you could try and atone.

No clerics as such, I'm nearly the only paladin, my concience is my only guide - no miraculous signs from a distant God.

1)You snuck into a house in the dead of night, for the purpose of executing someone. You were willing to risk the lives of all the adults and children, just because you thought he might be getting away. Your deputies then hacked a fairly helpless man to death. A Palidin with 'murderous thoughts' is bad enough, yet you clearly acted on them.

Well murderous thoughts is a bit misleading as it was an execution without the benefit of the prisoner already subdued.

Did the King appoint you judge jury and executioner? Or have you just unilaterally volunteered for the job?

King appointed by default as the hierarchy of legitimate law has defaulted to me.

You are in a fronteir town, and the closest 'law' is 3 months away? By Riding horse, that means 4300 miles. Even walking, that means over 2000 miles. So you are in Michigan, and the King is in California. Even if the king of this unbelievably huge kingdom is that far away, there is no other representative before that?

Sure it may be a long trip, but that is what good guys do, especially paladins, they obey the rules. Besides, it could make for a great story, as you guys keep trying to get to the king, and the bad guys keep trying to catch you.

Umm, he didn't really think on this - my character has 8 int but I guess the DM would slap down a Himalayan mountain range to justify his ad hoc statement. No probs with me. There will be a representative but we don't know how far the Mayor's reach is, so far it seems more than local. We don't get XP for battles in this campaign and the injuries linger, also we lose as often as we win so the assumption that we'll win any given battle will eventually result in bleached bones. We beat the Carlos brothers only just as they outclassed us but we played on their confidence.

I'm not saying you have to knock on his door,and tell him you plan on attacking in 30 minutes. Getting the drop on someone is fine, deciding to execute him when he really can't defend himself isn't. Possiblly burning innocents isn't. And saying "we can't afford to fight fair ... getting wounded means you carry those wounds into the next fight if you don't rest." Is great if you are chaotic neutral. Heck, otherwise just nuke them from space, that way you are always safe.

The decision to execute him was made during the journey back to town, after I mulled through the legal and moral issues. I'm just saying that it wasn't a spur of the moment decision but very deliberate. We couldn't burn his house initially because of the indiscriminate killing but as he was escaping I roused the house (only 1 of his sons was home) by calling "fire!" several times and then battled for my life vs the wrathful son. Out of the desperation of being boxed in by the flames did the Mayor jump to safety but my deputies scrambled swiftly to intercept.[/quote]

2) Without more info, I have no problem with the ambush. Do to the D&D rules, there is not much advantage to getting the 'drop' on someone unless you attack. IRL pointing a gun at someone means something, in DnD, pointing an arrow really doesn't. But that means an ambush is okay, a massacre is not. Making sure they have a way (and Time) to surrender is an important distinction. Otherwise it is just another execution.

You let him go? But he is obviously a 'bad guy'. Is the only important justice the one where they are a danger to you? Are you not concerned with letting such a miscreant back to cause more harm? Why let him just go back to town? Take him back to town, and put him in jail. Or on trial, or something. And if you want him to survive, why such little food? Just to torment him?

Well the Carlos brothers were all hired bounty hunters that we had to fight in self defence. We couldn't flee as we hadn't rested fully and further travel was a forced march with fatigue slowly killing us and putting us at further disadvantage. They also had mighty bows and so outclassed us in both (average) riding skills and missile fire. We had to fight and in melee we won, just. Legally speaking, after he was subdued, there was no reason to detain, him he didn't shoot his mouth off with threats and looked quite grief-stricken and despondant. We had been on 1/2 rations ourselves, thus the reason for fatigue, and so we took most of their food to fill our rumbling bellies.

And I usually picture Paladins being a little less cavalier in their atitudes towards the dead. You are (presumably) lawful good. And you will just let their bodies lie in the sun? You don't administer last rites? You don't help to bury them?

Lie in the sun for no less than 3 days to be exact. We were badly beaten up and nothing less than 3 days bed rest was going to get us travel worthy - the deputy nursing us said no heavy exertions so we had to tolerate the bad smell on the wind by end of day 1 (in the sun). I would have done last rites but they mean more from someone who cares more, so the surviving son was more suitable.

From just this little bit, it sounds like you guys a playing a much more self-centered alignment. Something like chaotic neutral, with good tendencies. C'mon, haven't you seen enough cool westerns, take back the town, support the law. You will get beaten up a lot, but right before the end, the townsfolk will come to support you, you will get the mayor, his minions will run from the townspeople, and the King will grant you some land, and the hand of a nobles' daughter.

Umm I don't think so. The people are largely cowed into submission and don't want to be publicly seen helping us due to the trouble that'll come their way. OoC, the DM discussed with us the campaign setting and the king doesn't give a rat about some ill defined frontier and thus my low ranking character bing sent. We're largely on our own - the previous lawman was killed, and we're still facing the Mayor's sons (2 brothers + 7(?) goons) and the Cavalry commander with his 50 odd company. With the goons in a straight up fight, we'll win or loss 50/50, the brothers will tip that to 20/80 so that's the deal.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

1) I've never been impressed with paladins who use "convenience" as an excuse to not do the right thing, especially when it involves assassinating some guy in his house in the middle of the night. (But that's just me, and we all draw the line in different places.)

If we tried to take the Mayor back to the core of the kingdom for more officiated justice there is the real possibility that we would have been intercepted (some of us don't have very good riding skills that are important for chases) and win/lose a 50/50 battle. Us being killed on a trail wouldn't solve anything. We have only won battles that we chose with the one exception being the Carlos brothers, which greatly raised morale for that reason.

 

[Coredump]

First, I am all for playing it how you and the DM want. the DM seems to be setting up a more 'morally ambiguous' setting than standard. Cool. Some DM's allow Paladins of various alignments. Cool. But then I really can't comment. I can only comment as if it was being played in a fairly standard world for paladin morality. So, here goes...

Well murderous thoughts is a bit misleading as it was an execution without the benefit of the prisoner already subdued.

You stated you had murderous thoughts. Then invaded his home and murdered him. Pretty straightforward. There is a difference to trying to 'bring someone in' and trying to track him down and kill him. Paladin is usually very different than 'vigilanti'

King appointed by default as the hierarchy of legitimate law has defaulted to me.

Huh?? So, from what I can tell, the king did *not* appoint you. But you have decided that you are the only 'legitimate' law, and will thus become judge, jury, and executioner, and who needs those pesky trials anyway.

There will be a representative but we don't know how far the Mayor's reach is, so far it seems more than local.

So now we discover that there *is* other law, that may even be 'legitimate' yet it is *inconvenient* for you to try and find out. "Sure,the judge may be a good guy, but we don't know, so lets kill everyone instead" Not how I think of most paladins.

We don't get XP for battles in this campaign and the injuries linger, also we lose as often as we win so the assumption that we'll win any given battle will eventually result in bleached bones.

Well heck, if combat is hard that changes everything. I think your paladin should start using poisen, and killing people while they sleep. And don't forget to torture the prisoners to get better information. The point is, paladins are supposed to be Lawful Good. (with capitals) Not have a sliding scale based on convenience and ease. You should probably be playing a chaotic Good fighter, or Cleric maybe.

The decision to execute him was made during the journey back to town, after I mulled through the legal and moral issues.

One man, out side of the law, with limited information. Judge, Jury, Executioner. I like The Punisher, but he is not usually considered a Paladin.

I'm just saying that it wasn't a spur of the moment decision but very deliberate.

So it was pre-meditated murder. Agreed.

We couldn't burn his house initially because of the indiscriminate killing but as he was escaping I roused the house (only 1 of his sons was home) by calling "fire!"

So, setting fire was too dangerous, until it looked like he might escape. Then it became very convenient. You already said you didn't know who, or how many were in the building. Elderly servants, young children, sound sleepers, people trapped behind flame, people getting injured during the panick, animals injured from panic or flame, etc. etc. These were all people you were willing to put at risk, because you came in to murder someone, and thought he *might* be getting away. It was much easier and more convenient for you to start a fire and risk (maybe) many lives, rather than take a chance he might get away, and you will have to hunt him down again.

Out of the desperation of being boxed in by the flames did the Mayor jump to safety but my deputies scrambled swiftly to intercept.

And murdered him, just as you had intended and decreed. (apparently) no attempt to parlay, no attempt to arrest him. Any grapple attempts? disarm? etc? The guy had no armor, and likely little/no magic. So heck, that just makes him easier to murder.

Well the Carlos brothers were all hired bounty hunters that we had to fight in self defence.

No issues here. You were attacked by bad guys. Fight them, and if they die, it was defense, no problem.

Legally speaking, after he was subdued, there was no reason to detain,

Huh? You are okay with attacking a murdering the Mayor while he was sleeping. But there is 'no legal reason' to detain a hired assasin? Huh?

Now, there is another issue. These guys may have been 'innocent' and not known that the Mayor was dirty. But from your description, I doubt it. It seems the entire populous knew. And since you were (presumable) trying to clean up the town, these guys are guilty of being used as assasins by a very bad man. (Mayor) So, take them to jail. Lock them up. Or try them and execute them. Now, if he was from 'out of town' and didn't know anybetter....then you don't punish him for being duped.

and so we took most of their food to fill our rumbling bellies.

So your justification is that it made it easier on you...
If he was a bad guy, then you are obligated to take him in. If he was a good guy that got duped, you are obligated to help him if you can. Maybe he could help you against the Mayor.

. I would have done last rites but they mean more from someone who cares more, so the surviving son was more suitable.

You are a Paladin. You are supposed to care. Plus, aren't these guys just law abiding citizens that got tricked into attacking you?

The people are largely cowed into submission and don't want to be publicly seen helping us due to the trouble that'll come their way.

You (or your DM) need to watch more westerns. It happens all the time. Oh yeah, you should also have a pretty high level Fighter in the area, but he is washed up and drunk, and only becomes useful near the end.

my low ranking character being sent.

So, who sent you? If it is the King, let that be known. Put up signs, tell locals, etc. Take back the town. Make new laws, etc. Declare the sons/goons outlaws. Etc. If you are not sent, there should be help not too far away, search them out for validation. And if out numbered, trick them, trap them, arrest the in their sleep. But don't just go in to kill them. Anyway... IMO.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

You stated you had murderous thoughts. Then invaded his home and murdered him. Pretty straightforward.

In this case the term murder is both justified and unjustified; justified because the method of slaying was always going to be brutal because we couldn't arrest him but unjustified because my character was legally in the right doing what he did, going by the common King's law.

Huh?? So, from what I can tell, the king did *not* appoint you.

No that's because wrong I wasn't clear. I am appointed on the King's authority but my actual rank is merely constable and my jurisdiction is something like the 6 mile radius about the town. I am to carry out common justice, bringing serious offenders to the local Judge (who happens to also be the Mayor) but sorting out misdemeanors myself. The problems faced are:
1) The Mayor is not carrying out his sworn duties but also the leader of outlaws abusing the citizens.
2) We have encountered undead, risen from slain settler-farmers (whole families, man, woman & child) that is freaking out everyone and we don't know the how or why?
3) The frontier cavalry are in league, at least in part, with the Mayor and their commander wants us dead. Legally speaking, because we can't defend ourselves because of a corrupt Mayor, we appear in the wrong and so Cavalry loyal to the king may attack us on sight. Some cavalry have been seen to attack the undead 'base' (where we are currently hidden overlooking the place) but they were ineffective and quickly retired after light losses.

So, setting fire was too dangerous, until it looked like he might escape. Then it became very convenient. You already said you didn't know who, or how many were in the building. Elderly servants, young children, sound sleepers, people trapped behind flame, people getting injured during the panick, animals injured from panic or flame, etc. etc. These were all people you were willing to put at risk, because you came in to murder someone, and thought he *might* be getting away. It was much easier and more convenient for you to start a fire and risk (maybe) many lives, rather than take a chance he might get away, and you will have to hunt him down again. And murdered him, just as you had intended and decreed. (apparently) no attempt to parlay, no attempt to arrest him. Any grapple attempts? disarm? etc? The guy had no armor, and likely little/no magic. So heck, that just makes him easier to murder.

This is probably the most morally ambiguous of our actions. To my credit I passed the servant quarters on the ground floor and started the fires to box him in his room so I could defend myself from his berzerking son. I did raise the alarm but theoretically there could have been a frightened woman in the Mayor's bed-chamber who would have regarded me a faceless attacker and not cried for help... I guess the indiscriminate nature of fire makes it borderline on the issues of poison use. (Btw I vetoed poisoning the corrupt Cavalry camps water supply because of the indiscriminate nature.)

Huh? You are okay with attacking a murdering the Mayor while he was sleeping. But there is 'no legal reason' to detain a hired assasin? Huh?

The bounty hunter profession is acceptable in such a vast kingdom, especially after the expansion, and these guys were doing their job. Once we won, they were disarmed and little threat. The remaining brother was grief-stricken but also a risk of nighttime revenge, we saw no reason for him to be with us. The confiscation of the now surplus food was because we were actually starving and were at penalties and risk of fatigue. Keeping the brother half starved was a punitive measure to ensure his priority was to get to civilization not follow us.

You are a Paladin. You are supposed to care.

But I can't care more than a blood brother.

You (or your DM) need to watch more westerns. It happens all the time. Oh yeah, you should also have a pretty high level Fighter in the area, but he is washed up and drunk, and only becomes useful near the end.

Think "Unforgiven" with a mean but wimpier Mayor (Sheriff) and good guys that need to drag themselves into a derelict barn to heal from their initial beatings. We've dealt to the Mayor and after the undead, we'll deal to the gang.

So, who sent you? If it is the King, let that be known. Put up signs, tell locals, etc. Take back the town. Make new laws, etc. Declare the sons/goons outlaws. Etc. If you are not sent, there should be help not too far away, search them out for validation. And if out numbered, trick them, trap them, arrest the in their sleep. But don't just go in to kill them. Anyway... IMO.

A little part of the adventure plot is: how does a weak paladin led group deliver justice with the baddies enjoying the protection of the law? The 3rd session is today so stay tuned.

 

[Starglim]

The Marshal planned to execute the mayor, in order to set up a fairer and better law in the town, within his own capabilities. He carried out his plan and took considerable risk to proclaim his reasons, uphold his honour and the king's authority.

I don't think you can weasel out of the illegal killing. He had no authority to punish the mayor and I assume that private murder is illegal under the King's law. He would have to justify it as an act of war or revolution, which is not exactly lawful but something that a Paladin may participate in to establish a better order. When he reports his actions to the capital, the Marshal must submit to the King's justice on this matter. That may be a long way off.

Regarding the bounty hunters, it seems that the youngest Carlos brother was just doing what he'd been hired to do, and didn't require a trial. The Marshal gave him adequate food and directions and provided (in an offhand way) for last rites for his brothers.

The Marshal seems to have a cavalier attitude towards the respectful treatment of the dead that may lead him to break his oath later. I'd probably require atonement in the future if he did any more hanging of dead bodies on walls or leaving them unburied. Otherwise his behaviour seems within the code.

 

[Steel_Wind]

My DM doesn't care a whit but I wonder what the rest of us ENWorldians think?

This was way off the lawful base and stretching into clearly dishonourable and illegal conduct.

Naughty? How about, chaotic, murderous and downright un-paladinlike?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Wow, there is a huge gulf between my view of a paladin and what others think, quite unbridgeable I think.

 

[Coredump]

Wow, there is a huge gulf between my view of a paladin and what others think, quite unbridgeable I think.

Yes, but I think it is explainable. You seem to be thinking more like a cowboy good guy. Think Wyatt Earp in Tombstone. Or someone that feels the ends justify the means. Willing to justify (almost) anything in order to get the bad guys out.

IMO, DnD does not treat Paladins like that. They are the epitime of Lawful and of Good.

In your town, you are the lawman, but you still need to obey and enforce the Law. You still cannot go around the law just because it is convenient or easier to do so. You must be a shining example, above reproach. (This does not mean you are required to be stupid however.)

From original post

1) The Mayor & sons of the frontier town run the place in a despotic fashion contrary to the laws of the king. Cedwick didn't know this and foolishly arrested the Mayor's goons who were promptly released the following day and later raided the Marshal's office to beat me and my deputies up. After crawling off to heal in some derelict farm we later recaptured the goons and marched them across the arid steppes to the distant cavalry fort, unfortunately the commander there was in cahoots so we had to flee (using him as a human shield). Releasing him, we head back to town full of frustration and with murderous thoughts towards the Mayor.

You did exactly right. You arrested, you re-arrested and took to higher authority. You now know more about the conspiracy. As long as the human shield was only a shield, and you were not threatening to kill him (ala hostage) no problem.

But then you started down the road of convenience.
If the Mayor/cavalry won't hold them for you. You build a jail and hold them. Or find a cave/etc and tie them up/chain them to the walls. (yes food and water everyday) Or take them to the next higher level in authority. Sure the King is some dumb distance away, but there has to be *someone* above the mayor nearby..
Or start with the Mayor, but not to kill him. To arrest him. Take him to his superior, or go to his superior first.
If you want to arrest him and keep him in your jail/cave, okay too. But to enter his home with the purpose of killing him is plain murder. Now, I am also assuming he has not told you of his evil doing first hand. You just know he let them go, or what the goons have blabbed.

If you want to be more hardcore.... post laws for *your* town. Ones that are punishible by death. (Not like spitting, but like assaulting an officer, or stealing, etc.) Ones you *know* his goons will break. Then when they break them, you can arrest them, have a (quick) trial, and execute them. Now, you may want to fortify your building, or go into hiding. But the point is to stay within the laws. Assasinating from a roof top, or assasinating from a sword point is still assasination, and in the 'not cool' column for a Paladin.

And I can't think of *any* situation that would allow a Paladin to set fire to a building when he didn't know how many people may get injured. That just *screams* chaotic. Endangering others for your benefit....

Realistically though, we can't afford to fight fair

*Not* the quote of a Paladin.



The bounty hunters are another matter. And it depends on if you thought they know the mayor is corrupt. Following the laws of a corrupt mayor does not safeguard them from justice. If they were duped, then maybe. But I am not sure if you tried to distinguish the difference. It sounds more like an inconvenience to keep him around. Rule of Thumb: Paladins do what is right, regardless if it is convenient. Caveat: they do not have to be stupid about it. *IF* you thought he knew the Mayor was bad, then the *right* thing is to arrest him for conspiring with the Mayor. *IF* you thought he was duped, then it is for your convenience that you sent him out on his own with low rations. It was for your convenience that you took his rations, benefiting yourself at the expense of another 'innocent'.
If he was guilty, you take him back as a prisoner. If he was duped, you take him back to make sure he gets back okay. Sure you may have to take certain precautions at night, but that inconvenience doesn't change anything. Or give him a choice to go alone or with you. And *at best* you take only the dead men's provisions, or split everything evenly. Remember, if he is duped, he is no more guilty than you are, you are simply taking advantage of him because you are stronger.

And it doesn't matter if a brother cares more, it is your duty to see over the souls of others. Besides, these were (apparently) innocents duped into attacking you. If the brother wants to *also* perform last rites...fine. But you do your duty regardless.

Don't just get the job done. Do it with Style. And make sure your actions are beyond reproach, that is what makes a paladins armour shine.....

 

[Seeten]

If the law is what is corrupt, are you advising the Paladin to follow the corrupt law? To have the judge of the trial be corrupt and allow it to happen and just re-arrest them and put them in front of the same corrupt judge?

I am confused. You have detect evil, you detect the evil, you arrest the evil, if duly appointed by the king, you kill the bad guys. Judge, jury and executioner. Why would you bring corrupt lawmen to a corrupt trial, ruled over by a corrupt judge, or follow corrupt laws? That way is evil.

Are you counselling the Paladin to be evil?

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

In your town, you are the lawman, but you still need to obey and enforce the Law. You still cannot go around the law just because it is convenient or easier to do so.

What happens when the law does not cover an obvious injustice? Am I expected to respect the lawful Mayor when we have uncovered that he is a murderer (the previous constable I replaced), is sanctioning a gang that practices extortion, and has my deputies and I beaten to within an inch of our lives to set as an example for the people that there is no hope for justice? The rearrested gang is then freed without due process and we are utterly powerless from a legal standpoint. He even controls the mail so I'd have to travel 3 months to lodge a protest, which if he bothered to pay a bribe could get 'lost' in the system.
Is a paladin supposed to respect illegitimate law? My characters viewpoint is to resort to the natural justice of common law.

But then you started down the road of convenience.
If the Mayor/cavalry won't hold them for you. You build a jail and hold them. Or find a cave/etc and tie them up/chain them to the walls. (yes food and water everyday) Or take them to the next higher level in authority. Sure the King is some dumb distance away, but there has to be *someone* above the mayor nearby..
Or start with the Mayor, but not to kill him. To arrest him. Take him to his superior, or go to his superior first.
If you want to arrest him and keep him in your jail/cave, okay too. But to enter his home with the purpose of killing him is plain murder. Now, I am also assuming he has not told you of his evil doing first hand. You just know he let them go, or what the goons have blabbed.

It is not a case of the cavalry not holding prisoners, it is a case of the cavalry being led by an actual accomplice to the Mayor! There is no 'legitimate' higher authority that we know of, that is the recurring theme, think of the vast spaces of say Russia and you have an idea of how isolated we are. Hmmm, we will give it another go though to find a legitimate authority, heck, we could organize a provisional council in the meantime.
No jail is going to work, we tried that but were over-powered and the prisoners were let loose, until we despatch the sons & co normal law and order can't be maintained.

If you want to be more hardcore.... post laws for *your* town. Ones that are punishible by death. (Not like spitting, but like assaulting an officer, or stealing, etc.) Ones you *know* his goons will break. Then when they break them, you can arrest them, have a (quick) trial, and execute them. Now, you may want to fortify your building, or go into hiding. But the point is to stay within the laws. Assasinating from a roof top, or assasinating from a sword point is still assasination, and in the 'not cool' column for a Paladin.

I don't think I can order anything but martial law and I think that the DM would require that to originate from the Mayor, I certainly am not allowed to institute any new 'laws', that would be unlawful.

And it doesn't matter if a brother cares more, it is your duty to see over the souls of others. Besides, these were (apparently) innocents duped into attacking you. If the brother wants to *also* perform last rites...fine. But you do your duty regardless.

I was one of the survivors and needed to provide medical nursing to nurse my companions to conciousness after 3 days. Given the situation I threw him a spade when he came to and left him to protect his brothers from the buzzards. I admit it wasn't my finest hour but I was real cranky after almost losing that battle and all our lives, to my credit I saved his life which I was not obligated to do as it was a fight to the death.