Paladin Variant Traits And Variant Aasimar Race Questions

Seeten · Mar 9, 2007

No race has a physical penalty and then 2 mental bonuses, so its hard to say where it ends up. I'm a pretty lenient guy, but if I were the DM, I wouldnt allow this.

Seeten · Mar 9, 2007

I WOULD allow TRRW's version though, with +cha -con and 5 resistance to one of the types. I'd allow a racial level later to get full aasimar, too, around level 7ish, right about the time you could buy off the la.

Nazhkandrias · Mar 9, 2007

Yes, it's true that no races with two mental bonuses and a physical penalty exist. Doesn't make sense to me, since a physical penalty cleanly fits two bonuses to mental stats, and vice versa. But I don't really see the issue with trying something new. Experimentation with new things can make things more interesting, especially when it's with a player character. Yes, it's a little strange, but it's fair, to be certain.

In the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 173, rules for balancing ability scores are presented. A bonus to Constitution carries less weight than a penalty, though; a bonus can be balanced out with a penalty to any stat (but Strength would be a significant loss, as Strength is considered to be the most powerful ability in terms of balancing stats), but a penalty would be too much for just a bonus in Wisdom OR Charisma to balance out; indeed, a bonus in Strength or Dexterity would be required. Strength and Dexterity bonuses are balanced by a penalty in two mental stats, meaning that it can be assumed that a penalty in Constitution is about equal to two mental ability bonuses. As such, it is more or less balanced, and I don't think that any of the racial features really push it out of the fair category. A penalty to Constitution with a bonus only to one mental stat would be unbalanced, on the side of low stats.

As for the resistances, would you have any particular problem with the distributed resistances, or is there a specific reason you suggest a large bonus to one? Not challenging a decision, it seems more than fair (and allows for customization on a racial level - nice, seems very cool), but I just want to know.

Oh, and as for taking a progression level later on to become a full Aasimar - not really an option. I plan on going into Paladin, which doesn't really allow multiclassing.

irdeggman · Mar 10, 2007

Nazhkandrias said:
Oh, and as for taking a progression level later on to become a full Aasimar - not really an option. I plan on going into Paladin, which doesn't really allow multiclassing.

It is not supposed to work that way.

The monster class levels are not supposed to prevent multi-classing. They do, however provide an xp penalty if not following the favored class rules.

And the Aasimar has paladin as its favored class. Note that having paladin as a favored class would not make sense if there is no multiclassing for the race.

In all of the Forgotten Realms books they also list paladin as the favored class for aasimar.

Seeten · Mar 10, 2007

Nazhkandrias said:
Yes, it's true that no races with two mental bonuses and a physical penalty exist. Doesn't make sense to me, since a physical penalty cleanly fits two bonuses to mental stats, and vice versa. But I don't really see the issue with trying something new. Experimentation with new things can make things more interesting, especially when it's with a player character. Yes, it's a little strange, but it's fair, to be certain.

In the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 173, rules for balancing ability scores are presented. A bonus to Constitution carries less weight than a penalty, though; a bonus can be balanced out with a penalty to any stat (but Strength would be a significant loss, as Strength is considered to be the most powerful ability in terms of balancing stats), but a penalty would be too much for just a bonus in Wisdom OR Charisma to balance out; indeed, a bonus in Strength or Dexterity would be required. Strength and Dexterity bonuses are balanced by a penalty in two mental stats, meaning that it can be assumed that a penalty in Constitution is about equal to two mental ability bonuses. As such, it is more or less balanced, and I don't think that any of the racial features really push it out of the fair category. A penalty to Constitution with a bonus only to one mental stat would be unbalanced, on the side of low stats.

As for the resistances, would you have any particular problem with the distributed resistances, or is there a specific reason you suggest a large bonus to one? Not challenging a decision, it seems more than fair (and allows for customization on a racial level - nice, seems very cool), but I just want to know.

Oh, and as for taking a progression level later on to become a full Aasimar - not really an option. I plan on going into Paladin, which doesn't really allow multiclassing.

If I am playing a Cleric, -2 con +2 wis +2 cha is clearly better than no adjustments, so while the DMG is a guide, its an imperfect one. Likewise, some consider strength the most powerful stat, but I sure dont. The most powerful classes have int, wis, and cha as their power stats, and all have str as a dump stat. So I'd argue that, since fighter is the weakest class, and str is his prime attribute, and Barbarian is middle of the pack, and str is his prime attribute, that Str is actually one of the least valuable stats, despite the DMG claiming it isnt.

Regardless, 2 bonuses for 1 penalty isnt something I'd allow, ymmv.

Nazhkandrias · Mar 10, 2007

I guess I'll just have to get this cleared with my DM, then. I'll probably go with TRRW's suggestion. Thanks for the help, everybody. You all answered a lot of questions!

Oh, and when I said multiclassing wasn't really an option, I was referring to the Paladin's restriction - if you multiclass as a Paladin, you can NEVER gain any more levels in Paladin. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to take a progression level at level 7 Paladin. My character would be essentially destroyed.

irdeggman · Mar 11, 2007

Nazhkandrias said:
Oh, and when I said multiclassing wasn't really an option, I was referring to the Paladin's restriction - if you multiclass as a Paladin, you can NEVER gain any more levels in Paladin. So, yeah, I wouldn't want to take a progression level at level 7 Paladin. My character would be essentially destroyed.

Right, but like I pointed out the aasimar specifically has paladin listed as their "favored" class - so this doesn't make any sense. How can you have a class as a "favored" class when that class doesn't allow multi-classing? It is my opinion that the text here should more closely match that of the Illumins from Races of Destiny.

Also I don't believe that the racial levels are supposed to work like that. {I also don't think that the xp penalties as listed in the Savage Progressions articles are supposed to work like that either. I mean the racial levels are really limited - something like 1 to 4 total, more akin to prestige classes in that regard.}

Nazhkandrias · Mar 11, 2007

irdeggman said:
Right, but like I pointed out the aasimar specifically has paladin listed as their "favored" class - so this doesn't make any sense. How can you have a class as a "favored" class when that class doesn't allow multi-classing? It is my opinion that the text here should more closely match that of the Illumins from Races of Destiny.

Also I don't believe that the racial levels are supposed to work like that. {I also don't think that the xp penalties as listed in the Savage Progressions articles are supposed to work like that either. I mean the racial levels are really limited - something like 1 to 4 total, more akin to prestige classes in that regard.}

I think that the only situation in having Paladin as a favored class is if you wanted to take like 3 levels of Cleric, then 20 levels of Paladin, you wouldn't be gimped the whole time. Of course, there are a few variant Paladin classes that allow multiclassing with certain other classes without losing ability to progress in levels. Perhaps that's why so few classes favor being monks and paladins - it doesn't serve much of a purpose. It's probably for flavor more than anything else.

I know that the progression classes are small, they're really just there to offer players a way to play Aasimar and Drow and the like without an LA, thus allowing them to join the party at first level. Then, leveling up to full racial powers will take a bit longer, but it integrates itself well into gameplay.

Still, they should add a note that says that "all progression classes are counted as favored classes (since they're not just favored by society, they're favored by very biology) and allow free multiclassing with Monk and Paladin (because multiclassing as a Paladin implies straying from the path, wheras progression levels are more like growing up)".

Doesn't make a lot of sense, but it lets me play a LA +0 Aasimar, allowing me to play a good Paladin from first level with excellent role-playing capability. Still, I don't know - should I go with TRRW's version, or stick with the savage progression version? I'll probably get the DM to agree to let me take a progression level without losing ability to level as a Paladin - it makes more sense that way. As far as multiclassing goes - I'm pretty sure there are a few prestige classes out there that allow free multiclassing with Paladin.

javcs · Mar 11, 2007

Racial Levels (Hit Die, but it's the same thing) are always counted as favored classes, and do not in any way restrict multiclassing.

That's in the SRD, Monsters as Characters. It is also in the MM? I think.

There are a few PRCs, and a few feats in the Complete books that are Paladin/something, one's Paladin/Rogue (Shadowbane Stalker, CAdv), a few more PRCs in CWar that don't count as leaving paladin or monk, I don't remember what the feats are called, atm, though.