Paladin Variant Traits And Variant Aasimar Race Questions

[Nazhkandrias]

Hmm... many good points. Forgot that it takes daylight to bother light-sensitivity! I'd prefer to just stick with the Native Outsider type, though, for sake of simplicity. Outsider is a very dominant trait, and tends to overshadow most other non-alignment or non-elemental traits.

Darkvision is a must for any celestial - regardless of how useful it is, it's part of their very biology. Can't ignore that, and so, for balance, Light will have to stay at one per day. And yes, Light all the time could be overpowered, but not Darkvision - light is shared with others, and it's in color. As for Paladin-ness of Darkvision - Darkvision isn't something you choose to have, unlike class. If you gotta be a Paladin, you gotta be a Paladin, even if some traits "contradict" it.

As for elemental resistance... I'll have to sleep on that one, and I'll probably wait for a second opinion. WotC put it at 2 in the Progression article, so I'm inclined to stick with that, but I will consider your idea (I like the ability for in-race customization).

 

[irdeggman]

As for elemental resistance... I'll have to sleep on that one, and I'll probably wait for a second opinion. WotC put it at 2 in the Progression article, so I'm inclined to stick with that, but I will consider your idea (I like the ability for in-race customization).

Hmm when customized and coming up with a race that is a diluted version of an aasimar maintaining only one of the resistances is a sound concept. Reflective of how the race was diluted and it does better fit most resistance mechanics.

 

[irdeggman]

You know that option from the Player's Guide to Faerun for planetouched is also a good one.

Basically you keep all of the aasimar qualities but get susceptibility to anything that affects outsiders and humanoids. So themeatically this could very well approximate the dilution of the aasimar with a human bloodline. Easy to handle and works within the FR world.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Yes, but we're not playing Forgotten Realms, sadly, and I don't own the sourcebook. I'll check it out, but I think I'm just going to use the final version I posted, choosing one resistance and taking +1 to Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive.

 

[IcyCool]

Yes, but we're not playing Forgotten Realms, sadly, and I don't own the sourcebook. I'll check it out, but I think I'm just going to use the final version I posted, choosing one resistance and taking +1 to Spot, Listen, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive.

It sounds like you've made up your mind, but I would like to point out something. For any spellcasting class (that uses charisma in some way), your race is a no-brainer choice. It is a superior choice for Wizard (probably tied with the gray elf for this), Cleric (unless the cleric doesn't use turning), Bard, and Sorcerer when compared to any of the core LA+0 races. That indicates that there is probably something wrong with it. The only "drawback" to playing this race, is that the favored class is Paladin. It is superior to playing a Human in every other aspect aside from favored class.

Better stats? Check.
Skill points? Equivalent. (+2 Cha means that you can spend 2 less points via point buy on it and put those in Int instead)
Bonus feat? Outsiders get proficiency with at least all simple weapons (do they get martial too?)
Oustiders are immune to a number of things that badly effect humanoids. As a native outsider, it is even better, because he can also be raised.
Other benefits over a human? (Darkvision, energy resistance, skill bonuses)

You mention the "Savage Progressions" article, but have you seen Savage Species? It gives you rules for creating new creatures, and determining LA for them (and creating "racial classes", which is what the Savage Progressions are (and where the name comes from)). Unbalanced ability scores is listed as being worth LA+1 all by itself.

So that means:

New race: Sample Humanoid
Type: Humanoid
Ability score adjustments: +2 Cha

Is worth LA+1.

Just something to think about. I don't think it will really break your game either way (I've used the LA buyoff from UA in my games and it didn't hurt anything), but it will likely make the non-faded aasimar characters feel outclassed at lower levels.

And for the record, I really like Nifft's race proposal (I'd bump the racial skill bonuses up to +2).

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Better stats? Check.
Skill points? Equivalent. (+2 Cha means that you can spend 2 less points via point buy on it and put those in Int instead)
Bonus feat? Outsiders get proficiency with at least all simple weapons (do they get martial too?)
Oustiders are immune to a number of things that badly effect humanoids. As a native outsider, it is even better, because he can also be raised.
Other benefits over a human? (Darkvision, energy resistance, skill bonuses)

No, my mind still isn't made up. Truth be told, I'm not just trying to create a race that works well for me and one particular game, I want a balanced race that everyone can enjoy (in the right scenarios) that is perfect for those who want a touch of the divine in their characters, without an LA. As such, I would love it if this race sat well with almost everyone (you can't please EVERYone, but you can still make it a popular choice). In truth, I want this race to almost play like one of the Core Races - cool quirks, but not overpowered or overspecialized, like many monster races are.

OK, I think I have the major balance here - bring in the Human Blood, and add in a -2 penalty to Constitution (for reasons given before - weakening of body due to divine power slowly leaving). That penalty to Con makes it so this race is NOT a natural choice for spellcasters, as that penalty to Con effectively hurts EVERY class, especially ones with low Hit Die. I think that this is a good, balanced build, using suggestions from everyone. But PLEASE REMEMBER! I am always open to suggestions. I'm sure there will still be a few bugs to work out, but this revision should be a step in the right direction. -
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- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Cha, -2 Con.
- Size and Type: Medium Outsider (Native).
- Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a Faded Aasimar is considered a Human.
- Speed: 30 feet.
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- Spell-like Ability: Light (1/Day) as a 1st-level caster or a caster of his class levels, whichever is higher.
- +1 to Listen and Spot checks. A Faded Aasimar's senses are keen, but not as keen as those of an Aasimar.
- +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks. A Faded Aasimar's charismatic nature and time spent with humans has allowed them to develop social graces and instincts not present in most Aasimar.
- Celestial Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: cold, acid, electricity. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type.
- Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
- Favored Class: Paladin.
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OK, the stats are now pretty fairly balanced, making this race a good (but not no-brainer) choice for paladin, cleric, and sorcerer, along with other Cha-based classes (assuming you're willing to take the hit to HP). The almost overpowering goodness of the Native Outsider type is leveled out by Human Blood (can still be a bit of a blessing, due to qualifying for feats and some items), and I think we've come to a consensus about resistances.

Darkvision is something I have to stay with, as it's a default trait for pretty much all outsiders - it will never degenerate into Low-Light Vision - it either stays, or it goes, and this race's power has not faded enough for that QUITE yet. And no, not all Outsiders get weapon proficiencies - Aasimars have no proficiencies to speak of.

The skill bonuses are based around the keener-than-a-human-but-not-as-keen-as-an-Aasimar senses of the Faded Aasimar, combined with their social grace and "people sense" that has developed from their human heritage. Naturally, favored class remains. As for languages, I don't really understand the suggestion of all the planar languages. Faded Aasimar are graceful creatures spend their time with civilized humanoids, so they learn civilized and graceful languages.

This means that a human is still a viable choice (stats are more balanced, and they get many more skill points, and an extra feat, plus better languages and favored class), but the Faded Aasimar is still a strong choice for Paladins or Sorcerers that don't mind a hit to Con and fewer skills and feats.

Now, what about Faded Aasimar that are more closely related to elves (and, in turn, Eladrin)? Would an acceptable substituion simply be giving them Elven Blood instead of Human Blood (and, if they derive their ancestry from Eladrin, subbing out their choice of resistance to acid with resistance to fire)? I know that in the MM, Aasimar are defined as humans with celestial ancestry, but it seems just as likely to happen with many of the common races (especially with elves and Eladrin).

Once again, please give suggestions! This is a race that I think we are capable of perfecting. Let's shoot for that goal!

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Ooh, and to be fair to those of a more kitten-smashing disposition, the Faded Tiefling should be pretty easy to do - evil counterpart of the Faded Aasimar. Simple. How's this?
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Faded Tiefling
- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha.
- Size and Type: Medium Outsider (Native).
- Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a Faded Tiefling is considered a Human.
- Speed: 30 feet.
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- Spell-like Ability: Lesser Darkness: Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
- +1 to Bluff and Hide checks. A Faded Tiefling has a natural knack for deception, but it is not as fine-tuned as that of a Tiefling.
- +1 to Disguise and Forgery checks. A Faded Tiefling's deceitful nature and experience in dealing with, deceiving, and taking advantage of humans and human society has allowed them to develop methods of manipulation and deception not known to most Tieflings.
- Fiendish Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: cold, electricity, or fire. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type.
- Automatic Languages: Common and Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
- Favored Class: Rogue.
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This is a very rough draft, but I think it's about balanced with the Faded Aasimar. They're both good at their respective jobs, but the underlying principle is the same.

The choices of skill bonuses may seem confusing, but there is and explanation. Hide and Bluff are skills that represent being a "good lier" - something that is more of a natural trait that is refined through practice. Disguise and Forgery are based around detailed knowledge of the subject of the deception. You can Hide from or Bluff most people without knowing a thing about them (hence it being a natural talent, more than anything else), wheras using Forgery to write a false letter or Disguise to fool somebody's friend requires knowledge of the subject and their society as a whole (hence it being a refined talent, one that requires observation and experience with the subject or their culture).

Faded Tieflings lose some of the natural "knack" for lying that Tieflings possess (just like Faded Aasimars lose a bit of the natural senses of the Aasimars). However, their ability to better blend into society (Tieflings are spooky and untrustworthy, and Aasimar are zealous and devoted, restricting them from much of society; the Faded versions fit into society better, thus resulting in better societal skills) grants them ability with skills based on societal rules and customs (rules of Diplomacy and reading the reactions of others; rules of deceiving others and manipulating the system).

In other words, ask yourself this: could I have been in the wilderness for a few years and still be good with this skill? Swim, Tumble, Use Rope, Bluff, Knowledge (nature), and Spellcraft are examples of these skills not heavily influenced by society. However, in order to make good use of skills like Knowledge (local), Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Diplomacy, Profession, and Gather Information, it helps to be up-to-date with the latest societal customs, technology, and methods of using a skill (information that would only be available in a social setting). Hence, the Faded races lose some of these natural talents, and gain societal ones.

Well, I'm sure both the Faded races still need a lot of work. Suggestions welcome! Even if you're just popping in now, I would love to get a little constructive criticism.

 

[Technik4]

- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Cha, -2 Con.
- Size and Type: Medium Outsider (Native).
- Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a Faded Aasimar is considered a Human.
- Speed: 30 feet.
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- Spell-like Ability: Light (1/Day) as a 1st-level caster or a caster of his class levels, whichever is higher.
- +1 to Listen and Spot checks. A Faded Aasimar's senses are keen, but not as keen as those of an Aasimar.
- +1 to Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks. A Faded Aasimar's charismatic nature and time spent with humans has allowed them to develop social graces and instincts not present in most Aasimar.
- Celestial Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: cold, acid, electricity. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type.
- Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Sylvan.
- Favored Class: Paladin.

Seems like a good class to take a sorcerer with, but also balanced for paladins more than your other ones posted above (which usually had an ability net gain - something you don't find in LA +0 classes). Personally I would drop the Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks - first they are very minor and second they are not present with the aasimar race (and with the Cha bonus, they are basically +2). The rest of it seems fine.

Faded Tiefling
- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Cha.
- Size and Type: Medium Outsider (Native).
- Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a Faded Tiefling is considered a Human.
- Speed: 30 feet.
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- Spell-like Ability: Lesser Darkness: Once per day, the tiefling may use an effect similar to darkness (caster level equals tiefling's character level), except that the radius is 5 feet. This ability is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell.
- +1 to Bluff and Hide checks. A Faded Tiefling has a natural knack for deception, but it is not as fine-tuned as that of a Tiefling.
- +1 to Disguise and Forgery checks. A Faded Tiefling's deceitful nature and experience in dealing with, deceiving, and taking advantage of humans and human society has allowed them to develop methods of manipulation and deception not known to most Tieflings.
- Fiendish Resistance (Ex): Choose one of the following energy types: cold, electricity, or fire. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type.
- Automatic Languages: Common and Infernal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Orc.
- Favored Class: Rogue.

I think this is actually weaker than the regular elf and would drop the -2 Cha. I also am not particularly fond of the Disguise and Forgery bonuses, so I would probably drop those as well. The darkness seems too weak to be of use, so I would either drop it or replace it with another 0-level spell (something selfish, not a buff or party spell - maybe prestidigitation).

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Seems like a good class to take a sorcerer with, but also balanced for paladins more than your other ones posted above (which usually had an ability net gain - something you don't find in LA +0 classes). Personally I would drop the Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks - first they are very minor and second they are not present with the aasimar race (and with the Cha bonus, they are basically +2). The rest of it seems fine.

Glad you like it! But I don't understand what you mean by they are not present with the Aasimar race. Do you think that they aren't skills that would be typical of an Aasimar or Aasimar offshoot? And only Diplomacy benefits from the Cha bonus - Sense Motive is Wisdom-based.

I think this is actually weaker than the regular elf and would drop the -2 Cha. I also am not particularly fond of the Disguise and Forgery bonuses, so I would probably drop those as well. The darkness seems too weak to be of use, so I would either drop it or replace it with another 0-level spell (something selfish, not a buff or party spell - maybe prestidigitation).

I did consider the fact that the ability scores were a bit low. I just threw in the Cha penalty because of the nature of Tieflings, and when you compare +2 Cha and -2 Con (Faded Aasimar) to +2 Dex and -2 Con (Faded Tiefling), the Faded Tiefling kind of comes out on top. Dex bonuses are usually a little bit better than Cha bonuses, so I thought that it needed a balancing factor. I'll probably wait for a second opinion before messing with that.

The darkness ability actually has an excellent use, if applied properly - 5 ft. of shadows, even in bright illumination - a portable 20% concealment miss chance for one character, and the ability to hide almost anywhere.

As for the Disguise and Forgery bonuses, I wanted to reduce the natural talent of this race from that of a true Tiefling (necessary, since the bloodline has declined), and those two skills were the most "in-character" skills I could think of for a more socially in-touch Tiefling (the same reason I gave the Diplomacy and Sense Motive bonuses to the Aasimar). They're just a slight substitution, really. And Diplomacy is a very useful skill to a Paladin, and Sense Motive helps, too (especially in combat, while someone is trying to feint you). Forgery comes in handy from time to time, and Disguise helps in an urban setting, a setting in which a rogue excels.

Granted, these two races aren't TOTALLY geared towards the kick-in-the-door style, as half-orcs are; they have strengths in combat, and strengths in roleplayed encounters.

 

[Diirk]

I think they should be type humanoid if you want them to be LA +0. For whatever reason it appears no matter how weak a race is, if it isn't humanoid it has a level adjustment. (There's an exception or 2, I can't remember them offhand tho). See the genasai for example, some of those are just plain awful and arguably worse than the PHB races.

Plus, immunity to hold, charm and dominate person is somewhat nice at lower levels, especially for fighter types.