Paladin Variant Traits And Variant Aasimar Race Questions

[irdeggman]

Glad you like it! But I don't understand what you mean by they are not present with the Aasimar race. Do you think that they aren't skills that would be typical of an Aasimar or Aasimar offshoot? And only Diplomacy benefits from the Cha bonus - Sense Motive is Wisdom-based.

The point made was a good one.

If the race is a diluted aasimar (with human heritage) it shouldn't suddenly gain a benefit that neither of its races of heritage have.

So to be true to the source (without changing the aasimar race itself) use the skill beenfits that the aasimar get as the basis and then dilute them.

If on the other hand this is an entirely different race then don't refer to it as "aasimar" at all and create some other name entirely.

 

[IcyCool]

I think they should be type humanoid if you want them to be LA +0. For whatever reason it appears no matter how weak a race is, if it isn't humanoid it has a level adjustment. (There's an exception or 2, I can't remember them offhand tho). See the genasai for example, some of those are just plain awful and arguably worse than the PHB races.

The only one that jumps to mind is the Elan, from the EPH. They are an Abberration type.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

If the race is a diluted aasimar (with human heritage) it shouldn't suddenly gain a benefit that neither of its races of heritage have.

So to be true to the source (without changing the aasimar race itself) use the skill beenfits that the aasimar get as the basis and then dilute them.

If on the other hand this is an entirely different race then don't refer to it as "aasimar" at all and create some other name entirely.

It's not that unusual for a half-race or a diluted race to gain some sort of unusual skill not present in either parent. Consider the half-elves, offspring of elves and humans, then consider their racial trait - "+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Half-elves get along naturally with all people."

The unexpected blending of two races doesn't necessarily mix their powers equally; it often has unusual side effects, often resulting from some unexpected synergy of the traits of the two races. Neither elves nor humans have these bonuses, but the combination of the two creates an unexpected reaction, in the form of this personality trait.

Aasimar would be excellent diplomats and negotiators if they weren't so darn stubborn and fanatic in their pursuit of good and righteousness - they're charismatic and wise, but they have difficulty getting along with other races who don't share their ascetic approach to life. Humans are a lot more morally flexible and sociable, since they can fit in and get along almost anywhere.

So, the Aasimar's natural charismatic nature (a good trait for negotiators) combines with the Human's acceptance of others and willingness to compromise (also a good trait for negotiators) to create the Faded Aasimar's diplomatic and motive-sensing abilities (an Aasimar's charisma without the zealotry of Aasimar that most find difficult to deal with, and a human's flexibility with the charisma of an Aasimar).

I think they should be type humanoid if you want them to be LA +0. For whatever reason it appears no matter how weak a race is, if it isn't humanoid it has a level adjustment. (There's an exception or 2, I can't remember them offhand tho). See the genasai for example, some of those are just plain awful and arguably worse than the PHB races.

Not necessarily. There are many exceptions to this "unwritten rule". To name a the ones provided by http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf -
CONSTRUCTS - Warforged, Warforged Scout.
MONSTROUS HUMANOIDS - Lupin, T'kel.
NATIVE OUTSIDERS - Glimmerfolk.
OUTSIDERS - Diabolus.
FEY - Gruwaar, Killoren.

Granted, most of these are provided from Dragon Magazine, but the Killoren and Warforged are both non-humanoids, and both are published in official sourcebooks. I generally don't see something that hasn't occurred yet and then assume there is a rule against it - indeed, D&D would never have made it past 1st Edition if that had been the practice.

As for exceptions - this is exactly what this race is. An exception. Outsider is such a dominant trait that no matter how "humanoid" something may seem to be, it will usually retain the Outsider or Native Outsider traits, if it had an Extraplanar relative within many generations of their family tree.

 

[irdeggman]

It's not that unusual for a half-race or a diluted race to gain some sort of unusual skill not present in either parent. Consider the half-elves, offspring of elves and humans, then consider their racial trait - "+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Half-elves get along naturally with all people."

The unexpected blending of two races doesn't necessarily mix their powers equally; it often has unusual side effects, often resulting from some unexpected synergy of the traits of the two races. Neither elves nor humans have these bonuses, but the combination of the two creates an unexpected reaction, in the form of this personality trait.

But this isn't a "new race". Aasimar are already a blend of two races to start with. What your basis given was the "diluting" of the aasimar with more human blood over an extended time. To me, that logic is not a "new" race. Which is why I said don't make them aasimar sourced but instead a brand new race.

Aasimar would be excellent diplomats and negotiators if they weren't so darn stubborn and fanatic in their pursuit of good and righteousness - they're charismatic and wise, but they have difficulty getting along with other races who don't share their ascetic approach to life. Humans are a lot more morally flexible and sociable, since they can fit in and get along almost anywhere.

Which is apparently what your basis is. That aasimar themselves should get this bonus (in fact I beleive you brought that up earlier).

So, the Aasimar's natural charismatic nature (a good trait for negotiators) combines with the Human's acceptance of others and willingness to compromise (also a good trait for negotiators) to create the Faded Aasimar's diplomatic and motive-sensing abilities (an Aasimar's charisma without the zealotry of Aasimar that most find difficult to deal with, and a human's flexibility with the charisma of an Aasimar).

But humans are also arrogant and often zenophobic - and I have seen nothing in any of the rules leaning towards humans having an inherent acceptance of others and willingness to compromise. They get their "bonuses" because of their "adaptability" not because of their integration of other races. I know this is an extrapolation and it depends on the actual "setting" used. Birthright, for example, had 5 human subraces and they pretty much didn't get along with most demi-human races.

So saying that an aasimar would get better at getting along by becoming more human, doesn't seem to wash.

Now halflings on the other hand do tend to accept others and get along with other races - so a halfing sourced aasimar could realistically get such a bonus, IMO.

 

[Diirk]

Not necessarily. There are many exceptions to this "unwritten rule". To name a the ones provided by http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Races.pdf -
CONSTRUCTS - Warforged, Warforged Scout.
MONSTROUS HUMANOIDS - Lupin, T'kel.
NATIVE OUTSIDERS - Glimmerfolk.
OUTSIDERS - Diabolus.
FEY - Gruwaar, Killoren.

To be fair, the warforged is a heavily modified type of construct (and they still didn't get it right; they forgot to remove from warforged the bonus hp that constructs get). Elan is an exception as well.

There's a variant LA +0 Aasimar listed in one of the faerun books... all they did was replace the Outside type with Humanoid (planetouched). However considering all the other benefits the Aasimar get I wouldn't consider that balanced at LA +0, either.

It mostly matters for things like polymorph etc; you can't polymorph into an outsider unless you're already an outsider. Which makes being an outsider a pretty big advantage, as there's some good polymorph options in there. The same would almost be true of warforged and the construct type, but polymorph states you can only change into living creatures, which rules out the construct type even if you are one already.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

But this isn't a "new race". Aasimar are already a blend of two races to start with. What your basis given was the "diluting" of the aasimar with more human blood over an extended time. To me, that logic is not a "new" race. Which is why I said don't make them aasimar sourced but instead a brand new race.

Perhaps you're right. Still, someone is bound to notice how close a race with a Celestial touch is to an Aasimar, so the question is this - how can this race be given flavor? I have a few ideas.

This race is TOTALLY different in gameplay mechanics when compared to the Aasimar, and there is only a slight similarity between the natures and heritages of Aasimar and this race. Now, for an explanation on how the race came to be - instead of a divine HERITAGE, what about a divine INFLUENCE? Instead of a Celestial actually becoming the parent, what about a newborn being "blessed" by a celestial, in order to carry out the will of their influencers on the Material Plane, amid the civilizations of the world? My view on influence of the races -

Aasimar - a Celestial ancestor conceives a child with a mortal, resulting in a half-celestial. Further generations still feel the power of the divine heritage, but the influence of the celestial is not strong enough to produce a half-celestial, resulting in an Aasimar.

New Celestial Humanoid Race - Child is born to normal mortal parents (they might even be evil in alignment), and is then selected by a celestial for whatever reason, giving them a touch of celestial power, in order to carry out the will of the celestial race amongst the civilizations of the material planes. Sort of a "Chosen One", if you will. This allows for a main race, with several subraces, depending on the divine influence.

We are left with something like this (rough draft) -
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Celestialchosen (Angelchosen, Archonchosen, Eladrinchosen, or Guardinalchosen) (working titles)
- Ability Score Adjustments: +2 Cha, -2 Con.
- Size and Type: Medium Humanoid (human).
- Speed: 30 ft.
- Low-light Vision.
- Spell-like Ability: Light 3/Day, caster level is equal to class levels. A 15 minute meditation (title in the works), similar to a sorcerer's spell preparation, must be completed each day to refresh the ability. (This ability is pretty much identical to the Searching For The Dragon meditation performed by Kobolds.)
- +1 to Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. Angel influence - +2 to Sense Motive. Archon influence - +2 to Intimidate. Eladrin influence - +2 to Bluff. Guardinal influence - +2 to Survival.
- Celestial Resistance (Ex): Choose one energy type, as determined by your celestial ancestor. You gain racial energy resistance 5 against the chosen type. Angel - Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire. Archon - Electricity. Eladrin - Cold, Electricity, Fire. Guardinal - Cold, Electricity, Sonic.
- Code Of The Celestial: A Celestialchosen who shifts to an evil alignment loses racial ability adjustments, low-light vision, the ability to cast Light as a spell-like ability, any racial skill bonuses, Celestial Resistance, the ability to speak Celestial, and they have no favored class. A Celestialchosen can regain their racial features through use of an Atonement spell. A Celestialchosen that shifts to an evil alignment and makes peaceful contact with an evil outsider may change their race to Fiendchosen (details on this later; basically the opposite of a Celestialchosen - influenced by general Fiends, Demons, Devils, and Yugoloths), gaining all the racial features of a Fiendchosen. The racial influence of a Fiendchosen is determined by the race of the evil outsider with which peaceful contact is made (any evil outsider other than a Devil, Demon, or Yugoloth counts as a general Fiend).
- Automatic Languages: Common and Celestial. Bonus Languages: Any (other than Abyssal, Infernal, and secret languages, such as Druidic). A Celestialchosen's involvement in diplomacy and different cultures allow them to learn a wide variety of languages. However, Celestialchosen refuse to utter the unholy languages of Demons and Devils.
- Favored Class: Paladin, but alignment requirements vary depending on celestial influence. Angel - Paladin (substitute required Paladin alignment (LG) to LG OR NG OR CG). Archon - Paladin (LG). Eladrin - Paladin (substitute Paladin's required LG alignment to CG). Guardinal - Paladin (substitute Paladin's required LG alignment with NG).
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This is a VERY rough draft, but I like the concept of a human who has the responsibility of representing the Celestial races on the material plane - makes for interesting roleplaying opportunities, especially if the character doesn't always enjoy (or even want) this huge responsibility. Plus, a showdown between a Celestialchosen and a Fiendchosen of opposite alignments would be CRAZY. I think that this qualifies for LA +0, but I will need suggestions and comments. After some details in this race get worked out, perhaps I'll design the Fiendchosen.

 

[irdeggman]

Interesting.

But do races have codes of conduct? It sounds more like a class thing than a race one to me.

Is light (as in the spell like ability) a "requirement" of celestial heritage?

Changing alignment requirements for paladins pretty much forces in the paladins of different alignment rules from Unearthed Arcana. I don't think it is a bad idea, but it will have a domino effect on a mostly RAW game though.

At Birthright.net we made different alignments for paladins of different deities (based on the 2nd ed Birthright rules somewhat, there was a chaotic good paladin there). It affected their smite and detection abilities accordingly.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

But do races have codes of conduct? It sounds more like a class thing than a race one to me.

The Dragonborn have a similar code of conduct, losing almost all of their powers if they defy Bahamut. Basically, the same principle applies here. It allows for flexibility - a celestial may look down upon it, but a Celestialchosen can be of a neutral alignment, or even of a Law-Chaos alignment that the celestial does not approve of. Granted, it benefits an Eladrinchosen to be CG, so they can maintain their ability to take Paladin as a favored class - but it isn't set in stone. As long as they aren't evil, they're fine. It even leaves room for a RADICAL character shift, with the option of turning into a Fiendchosen (sort of like the Paladin-Blackguard shift). I'm pretty sure that the Fiendchosen will have rogue as a favored class - a Chaotic Evil rogue is about as far from a Lawful Good paladin as you can get. In addition, they can always take Blackguard, if they want.

Is light (as in the spell like ability) a "requirement" of celestial heritage?

As in prerequisite? No. This race isn't a result of a feat, it's an entirely new race altogether. Closest to humans, yes, but different enough to be set apart.

Changing alignment requirements for paladins pretty much forces in the paladins of different alignment rules from Unearthed Arcana. I don't think it is a bad idea, but it will have a domino effect on a mostly RAW game though.

At Birthright.net we made different alignments for paladins of different deities (based on the 2nd ed Birthright rules somewhat, there was a chaotic good paladin there). It affected their smite and detection abilities accordingly.

Care to provide a link? I'm interested. But how would the paladin's abilities change with alignment? Sure, Dispel Law would become Dispel Chaos and some class skills may change, maybe even a change in aura, or a few class skill substitutions, but that's about it.

What would a NG paladin be like? What would happen to Dispel Law/Chaos? The aura would probably change to something like Aura of Benevolence, but I don't know what that would do. Does the Birthright article cover this? I suppose that if the DM questions this race's favored classes, I can show them a printout of the paladin variants.

How would the smite and detection abilities change? No matter the alignment, a paladin's primary enemy is evil, not law or chaos. Even with the Paladins of Honor and Freedom, the detection and smite abilities are the same. Only things like Anarchs have those change.

I'm glad you like the idea, but how does it work balance-wise? Are the ability adjustments fair? Is a low-level spell-like ability, skill bonuses, low-light vision, a resistance, and an alignment restriction worth losing a bonus feat, tons of skill points, and any favored class? Most importanly... would you consider this race LA +0?

OK, I feel stupid asking this... what does RAW stand for? I've heard it before, and I know it has something to do with the rules, but I don't quite get it...

 

[javcs]

RAW is Rules As Written.
I'd peg it at the upper ranges of LA+0 in the right kind of build, otherwise it probably won't be that great.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

I'd peg it at the upper ranges of LA+0 in the right kind of build, otherwise it probably won't be that great.

Thanks for the explanation on RAW, it was beginning to bother me.

And with the right kind of build, anything is a little better than most. A half-orc barbarian tends to be much better than a half-orc wizard, but I usually don't factor that into LA. LA is really just for the base race, not so much for opportunities and possible combinations.

Either way, I'm glad you think that it's relatively balanced. Any more opinions? I like the idea of this race, and I can think of a few players I know that would jump at the opportunity to play one. I might even get my DM to run a campaign based around a few of them (each from a different influencer, makes for an interesting combination - overall, they have the same goal, but their methods differ greatly. Good potential for in-party conflict).