Paladins and Self Preservation

[Taneel BrightBlade]

My thoughts
Flee is fine If his wis is 7 or better (other wise he is reckless and charges his enemy regardless least thats what I do. Also say retreat then people shouldn't have a problem 'cuz a palidin is a type of soldier and retreating is a combat manuver.
Also a palidin should know "he who runs away live to fight another day."

 

[Endur]

It depends on the Paladin's code and whether he holds to the code. In Greyhawk, the Knights of the Watch pledge to never flee.

"Never fleeing" is a good example of something that should be in a Paladin's code. It fits chivalric ideals of honor and courage. Paladins are immune to fear for a reason.

Those who talk about living to fight another day, while prudent and cautious, may not be paladins.

Paladins are the ideal. If the ideal never flees, then the ideal becomes reliable. If everyone knows that the Paladins will not flee from battle, then lost battles may become won battles, because the Paladins will not flee and others know that and do not flee either.

 

[Endur]

It is the responsibility of the GM to make the story meaningful. Whether or not your GM is a failure should not impact the choices of your Paladin.

I can't help feeling that some DMs, not content with throwing up opportunities to screw over a Paladin by subverting his Code, also want to use that Code to just arbitrarily kill a character. I've played characters who are happy to lay down their lives for others, even those they despise. But that death has to mean something to make it satisfying. Otehrwise it's just a sadistic act on the DM's part. He might enjoy it - in his sick way - but it will kill the game for me, and for the otehr players too, I suspect.

 

[Endur]

By mentioning "honor", the PHB brings in the Chivalric definition of honor.

Here is what the PHB defines as the Code of Conduct.
<snip>
4. Act with honor

It should be noted that the PHB Code of Conduct does not mention chivalry once. Unless a custom code is written, a paladin has no obligation to adhere to any code of chivalry.

 

[Deadguy]

It depends on the Paladin's code and whether he holds to the code. In Greyhawk, the Knights of the Watch pledge to never flee.

"Never fleeing" is a good example of something that should be in a Paladin's code. It fits chivalric ideals of honor and courage. Paladins are immune to fear for a reason.

My word - what short lives those Paladins would have! In any game there is going to be a situation sometime when the PCs must retreat. A deception makes them attack when they are outmatched. A few unlucky rolls and a fight becomes unwinnable. Unexpected reinforcements arrive by some means. In any of these situations a 'no retreat' Code is a death sentence for the PC. It quite probably isn't even an heroic death, just someone too bullheaded to back off from a situation which is too much for them.

This puts the DM into an awkward situation too - since in a sense they are the one who will 'kill' the PC: they let a foolish element of the Code be introduced, and now a character must die because of it.

I maintain that a 'no retreat' clause is the mark of an idiot not a hero!

 

[Endur]

Think about this in terms of Ancient and Medieval history. Ancient Battles rarely resulted in the death of the opposing army. Instead, some small percentage (10% or so) of the enemy force was slain and the rest fled or were captured. Because the other side fled, your side won the battle.

Typically, more casualties were inflicted during the flee and pursuit phase than during the actual battle.

Now you have a force like the Knights Templar that pledge not to flee. This might mean that your army doesn't flee, the other side does, and you win the battle.

I maintain that a 'no retreat' clause is the mark of an idiot not a hero!

 

[Deadguy]

I hate to point out here that we are talking of a role-playing adventure game, not a wargame!

I know you are correct about the pattern of warfare, but PCs don't generally engage in War, they are adventurers, Paladins included. Telling a PC Paladin that his Code forbids him to retreat is essentially sentencing that character to death - he isn't worth playing except for a one-shot.

 

[Umbran]

By mentioning "honor", the PHB brings in the Chivalric definition of honor.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't mention chivalry explicity. There are many honor codes that RPG players are familiar with - there's chivalry, there's bushido code, there's Klingon honor, and many others.

I submit to you that chivalry is not explicitly mentioned specifically so folks are not bound to chivalric honor, so that the class can flex to fit many more personal images of what a paladin can be.

 

[Endur]

I agree and disagree. Honor will be whatever the campaign dictates. If the campaign recognizes individual personal codes of honor, then yes, it can flex to fit the player. If the campaign is set in Japan, it probably means Bushido. France and England probably means Chivalry. etc.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't mention chivalry explicity. There are many honor codes that RPG players are familiar with - there's chivalry, there's bushido code, there's Klingon honor, and many others.

I submit to you that chivalry is not explicitly mentioned specifically so folks are not bound to chivalric honor, so that the class can flex to fit many more personal images of what a paladin can be.

 

[Endur]

I guess this sort of depends on how you see your Paladin and on how your GM structures your campaign. Is your Paladin a Soldier in the war against evil or a war between nations or a detective or a crusader or an adventurer who loots forgotten tombs?

Most Paladins do not loot forgotten tombs. They have better things to do and it would rarely make sense to find a Paladin in an Tomb Raider adventure (unless there was some world-shattering artifact at stake, Quest for the Holy Grail, etc.).

I hate to point out here that we are talking of a role-playing adventure game, not a wargame!

I know you are correct about the pattern of warfare, but PCs don't generally engage in War, they are adventurers, Paladins included. Telling a PC Paladin that his Code forbids him to retreat is essentially sentencing that character to death - he isn't worth playing except for a one-shot.