Paladins and Self Preservation

[shilsen]

A paladin who has a code that says, "Must never retreat from any confrontation" is soon going to be dead. Paladin-quality folks are rare, and the Powers that Be are not so dumb as to throw away some of their best material for no purpose.

Also, a code that says, "Must never retreat" removes much of the player's ability to role-play, as it removes too many decisions form the player's hands. A proper paladin code is written so that the player must make hard choices, not so that he has no choice at all.

What he said. He who fights and runs away, lives to lay on hands another day.

 

[Henry]

I don't see harm in retreating, as long as it doesn't violate any other tenets like endangering an innocent or the like. While it is frowned upon to retreat in the face of danger, it is also frowned upon to waste resources in the presence of overwhelming odds. That Paladin can help the cause of good more by returning with reinforcements, or returning when better prepared.

What if the paladin is the only one who knows the threat exists? What if he is able to retreat to a defensible position instead of routing like a dog? What if he DOES have to rout, to ensure someone else has defense available for the way home?

Good example (Blackjack may get tired of my using him) - Malachite from Defenders of Daybreak. No problem with retreating or leading a harrying action, but also no problem making the ultimate sacrifice when he is called upon.

Remember, not retreating when it serves others better by doing so is a sin of pride.

 

[Epametheus]

I'd expect the paladin to be the last one out -- no retreating until he or she is sure that everyone else is safe, and for the paladin to guard the rear of a retreating group. Beyond that, I expect paladins to live with honor, not die with stupidity.

 

[billd91]

I'd expect the paladin to be the last one out -- no retreating until he or she is sure that everyone else is safe, and for the paladin to guard the rear of a retreating group. Beyond that, I expect paladins to live with honor, not die with stupidity.

I would expect the paladin to be willing to be a rear-guard, but also be willing to yield it to someone else who is better suited to it and also willing (even if rear-guard to the death). Paladins may be one of the most prominent agents of good and self-sacrifice, but letting someone else sacrifice themselves in a good cause is also a good thing and should not be overridden by a paladin.
A paladin's zeal to put himself at risk for the good of others should not be so arrogant and prideful that he doesn't allow others to make the same choice.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

To create another paladin thread. . .

Say a paladin is confronted alone by possibly or probably or definitely overwhelming force. What would you say to the paladin fleeing?

Quasqueton

Goodbye and Good Knight!

 

[Torm]

Remember, not retreating when it serves others better by doing so is a sin of pride.

Yep. And a Paladin should retreat when his loss in combat would be a waste. It is called Withdrawing With Honor.

 

[Ottergame]

When a Paladin needlessly dies, the causes of Evil and Chaos are advanced.

 

[Hand of Evil]

The thing about it is that it would be great role-playing, the battle, the withdraw (but the commander dies before issuing it and things get confused) the trial of the paladin, the stripping of his badges, the breaking of his sword, he becomes outcast...

Sounds like the rifleman TV show.

History and TV has show us that withdraws will result in actions, sure the paladin may get get kicked out of his order but would he not still be a paladin? What quest would he have to perform to show he was not a coward?

 

[Joshua Randall]

The Book of Exalted Deeds states fairly unequivocally that Good PCs may flee in the face of overwhelming foes without losing their exalted status. I would say that applies to paladins as well.

Surely now that D&D is 30 years old, we can let go of the 'Lawful Stupid' paladin tropes?

 

[Dancer]

It really depends on what is considered "overwhelming odds". The vows and code of the Knights Templars said that they could not retreat from battle unless facing 3 to 1 odds and then only under direct orders, they had to carry out their orders without question, and neither gave nor recieved quarter. This is pretty tough to role-play (not impossible though). Against a single humanoid opponent (say without magic) then there is no way the Paladin does not stand his ground, even if he is getting his butt waxed. The problem comes in when magic and creatures come into play. How do you judge what is a fair match for a Paladin and when he is facing overwhelming odds? In the case of the Templars, how do you determine when is effective outnumbered by a 3 to 1 ratio when it comes to the power of creatures.

Also, many people tend to gloss over the fact that Paladins are knights, no matter what their special abilities. They fear loss of honor as much as the next knight. Any smudge on a knights honor not only affects him but his liege (and in a Paladin's case, his god). It's great to say "live to fight another day" but what knight is going to be relied upon when it becomes known that he will flee combat if it gets too tough (because his abilities would be better used if he lived). This has a flavor of cowardice that no true knight could live with for long.

It's a easy question with a difficult, complex answer. What is the Paladin's code? What does the Paladin's god expect from him? Does he have a liege lord? What does his liege lord expect from his vassals? Does the Paladin believe in personal honor? Or is all honor from the power he serves? Will that power allow him to remain a paladin if he flees in the face of the enemy?

I'm very interested in others opinion on this. It really isn't just a question for paladins but for any warrior of honor and especially for knights.