Paladins at dinner parties: Polite or Truthful?

Agback said:


I doubt that even Joan of Arc was a paladin. Could she lay on hands? Could she detect evil at will? (Look up 'Gilles du Rais' in an encyclopaedia before you answer that). Did she have a telepathic link to her horse? How many times per week could she cure disease?

Paladins are D&D characters, living unlike real people in a world where Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are palpable forces. In a D&D world there need be no moral philosophy, no argument about what is good and what evil, because moral truths are objectively determinable by spells etc. D&D characters are therefore very different both from real people and from characters in non-D&D sources.

Regards,


Agback

Really? I thought Joan of Arc played D&D! I didn't know she couldn't "Detect Evil" at will or "Lay Hands" up to her Charisma bonus times her level...

Despite the fact that someone already stated the obvious (that Joan of Arc is not a "D&D paladin"), I see that you felt it was necessary to restate this undeniable fact again. No, I never said Joan of Arc was a D&D paladin. I simply said that if there ever was a "real-life paladin" then only Joan of Arc would possibly qualify, as far as I know.

So, according to your logic, Sir Galahad would not be considered a paladin either because he couldn't "Detect Evil" or "Lay Hands"? Undeniably, most people would consider him a paladin. And yet, he is believed to be a mythical figure not even a real one. But just so you know, there was the term "paladin" prior to D&D.

Regardless, the discussion on Joan of Arc was based on her moral character not her ability to use D&D spell-like abilities. Sorry you missed that point. :rolleyes:
 

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Do-gooders

I played a lawful good dwarf with a 6 Cha and 18 Int. He was extremely racist, very mean, played pranks--not a nice guy. But he was lawful good. He always smote evil, always protected the weak, always did the right thing (though he'd often complain).

At one point, the Lawful Neutral Monk in the party refused to explore a human tomb. The monk claimed doing so would violate the sanctity of the tomb/would be unlawful. The dwarf argued that dwarven law did not protect the sanctity of human tombs/exploring would not be unlawful. A fun debate ensued.

So, lend my vote to those that say that there are many degrees of lawful good. A paladin charged with smiting a horde of evil orcs would do so, using the most efficient means possible, including poisoning their drinking supply. Dead is dead.
 

Sir Edgar said:
So, according to your logic, Sir Galahad would not be considered a paladin either because he couldn't "Detect Evil" or "Lay Hands"? Undeniably, most people would consider him a paladin...
Actually, he did the equivalent of both at different times in different versions of the story.
 

SHARK said:
Long post
SHARK, I don't think anyone here was suggesting that paladins always have to fight as though they were in a tournament.

But, as a player, I think I hold them to a somewhat higher standard of Good than you do. Not that it really matter. Different strokes and all that.

But I think I have to disagree with you about fair play in a "grim and gritty" world. I think it's viable. Not for an army, probably, though I wouldn't know. But for an individual, fair play is always an option. It isn't necessarily a fun option. It's one that means you will take a lot of shots you could have avoided otherwise, but it's viable, if you believe in it.

I discovered back in middle school that I'd rather fight fair and come out of it with a black eye, sore groin, and a stalemate than win by fighting dirty. At least I could sleep at night after the first one. (After I took some advil, of course. :) )

Now granted, I wasn't fighting anyone with intentions to kill me, just people who thought the Catholic School kid would be easy meat. But I'm also not a paladin.
 

When last I posted, I named a couple of guys I consider my heroes: Jesus, the Buddha, Martin Luther King, Jr., and Nelson Mandela, I believe.

It's a pretty interesting list to consider in terms of what constitutes success and failure for a very good person. Jesus was tortured and murdered, Buddha was tortured, Martin Luther King, Jr., was murdered (and perhaps tortured), Nelson Mandela was tortured. I don't think many people are going to say that they failed, however.

The case of Jesus is particularly helpful, I think, because he was both tortured <i>and</i> murdered by what can easily be construed as organized, evil forces. He refused to play by the rules of the Roman and Sanhedrin and, as a result, he was cruxified and killed. Should I go, "Way to go, Jesus"? Should I sneer? Should I say, "Way to let the Roman Empire continue to oppress and brutalize your people"? I don't think that would be appropriate for, as we pretty much know, Jesus <i>won</i>, and in a big way. Indeed, he won in large part <i>because</i> he was cruxified.

As that spins around for a bit, let's take a look at the life and times of perhaps the most famous organization of paladins out there: the Knights of the Round Table.

Few more dismal stories exist. Camelot fell. The quest for the Grail ended in failure. Did Camelot fail, however? As with the story of Jesus, I can't even remotely take that to be the case. For while Camelot's stones fell, the ideals of Camelot survive and flourish. The idea of fair play, justice, limited government, government existing within and not above the framework of law -- that the same laws apply to king and peasant, knight and merchant, has been a powerful force. Would the legend of Arthur be the same if he had tortured information out of people, poisoned the wells of his enemies, brutalized his foes instead of showing them mercy? No. He'd be the story of one more Middle Ages barbarian slaughering people willy-nilly and we would not remember him. He is remembered far more than Camelot than Mount Badon; he is remembered for the peace he brought, the justice he served, than the battles he won.

Paladins, IMO, see failure and success way differently than most other people. The real battle is won and lost not on the battlefields, but in people's hearts and minds. To do good when it would be easier to do evil, to show mercy when you know you'll be betrayed, to treat everyone -- demon and saint -- as if they had the same rights and dignity, is the way to go. Because to a paladin, to lower oneself to the level of one's foes for a single moment <I>is the loss</i>. That's where paladins win and lose. Paladins turn a physical loss into a lasting victory not because they win or lose battles, but because they change the context of the struggle from the physical to the spiritual. (The same is true, I believe, of all good clerics, as well, whether they bear arms or not.)

There is also the argument that is made that evil MUST be fought with, essentially, it's own tools. The argument seems to be given that evil is <i>stronger</i> than good. This is sheerest folly to even <i>consider</i>, I think. Evil is, well, it's evil. It's corrupt and divisive to it's <i>bones</i>. Think about a society where everyone is trying to screw everyone else all the time and that's a rough picture of the various lower planes. Imagine an army of everyone trying to screw everyone else trying to <i>do anything</i>. Sure, it has certain advantages, but even those work against evil in the long run.

For instance, if you're working for a leader who believes in treachery and murder are the best solutions for most problems, what are you going to do to him if you're as evil as he is? Or, heck, even if you're neutral! You're going to try to defeat him with treachery and murder -- you're going to endeavor to be worse than he is. So, yeah, while people in this society are going to be good at treachery and murder, at every dirty trick in the book, they're going to have to live with the consequences of society that runs in such a fashion.

Or if you feel that is a little too chaotic, what about the corruption usually endemic in lawful evil societies? In a good society, where the transfer of resources is efficient and benevolent, in an evil society the best of everything is going to be drained off into various private coffers and the like. Taxation needed for huge armies is going to suffer, thust he armies are going to be smaller and far less efficient than ones of lawful good people who cheerfully pay their taxes to tiny bureaucracies that see to it the money gets to the government to be spent wisely and well.

In short, evil is inefficient. So, for every strength you can propose for evil, I can propose a weakness. Sure, it has a wide range of action, but it's inefficient.

Not to mention that <i>no one wants to live under an evil overlord.</i> This is <i>vital</i> to understand. So, imagine a common sort of scenario in fantasy games: the evil necromancer tyrant has conquered half of the Kingdom of Peacefulilla. The people, of course, are horrified -- their peaceful existence is shattered by the brutal tyranny of the eeeeeeevil necromancer. Their natural urge is to rise up. But some damn paladin keeps striking behind enemy lines and <i>poisoning the wells</i>.

This happens! During World War II, the Russian people initially greeted Hitler's troops as liberating them from Stalinist tyranny -- but rather than seizing the fact the Russians <i>wanted</i> to be <i>freed</i>, Hitler's <i>evil</i> gave the Russian people back into Stalin's hands! A "paladin" going and acting like a sonofabitch, burning farms, poisoning wells, etc., is not going to be loved by the people. He will be seen as a brutal thug that is no different than the necromancer who rules them -- indeed, his horrible actions will justify the necromancer's rule! It <i>legitimizes</i> it! The necromancer can now say, "I wish I could do something to help you, but these so-called paladins keep destroying the infrastruction, so I must continue the high taxation and exactions in order to save our land and way of life from the brutal thugs who seek to destroy us."

No, no, the notion that evil must be fought with its own weapons is not supportable in any sense of the word.

Furthermore, as I've said before, if you encourage people to behave in nasty ways to their "enemies," you've still lost. If a "paladin" trains a group of people to poison wells, to torture, to do anything to win . . . when the war is over, that attitude isn't going to vanish.

Someone mentioned Gilles de Rais -- who is an interesting case to look at. It wasn't until <i>after</i> the war was ended that he became the monster we remember him as -- during the Hundred Years' War, he was the very model of French chivalry. It is pretty widely held the reason this is so is because de Rais, during the war, had an easily available outlet for his vile impulses: the war itself. If he felt in whatever sick mood he was in that caused him to defile children, well, during the war he could go out and slaughter some Englishmen and that was good! If the war had not ended during his lifetime, we'd probably think he was a swell guy, a skilled general and tremendous fighter. But the war did end and those horrific tastes he had nutured during his years of war didn't just vanish.

Who has won, now? How many Giles de Rais do wars fought with every trick of violence and brutality create? As I've said elsewhere, war is evil -- but there are still choices that can be made. We can chose to fight war as clean as possible, or as dirty as possible. If a person choses to fight a dirty war, you might have increased the chances of physically defeating your foe but at the cost of internalizing some of the behavior of your foe. Even in victory, you have already lost.

This is made worse in a game with active supernatural evil, too, I'd think. I seriously doubt clever demons and devils would care if they "lost" a war if, in the process, they got to drag serious chunks of society down to their own level. I think clever fiends would see that as a wonderful <i>victory</i>, one perhaps sweeter than if they'd managed to overrun the place. Now some of the ethics of evil -- torturing people for information, poisoning the wells of farmers who are just trying to survive, burning the enemies fields and depriving everyone (good and evil, supporter of the overlord or not) of food -- has entered into this kingdom. That's a good place to build from, I'd think, were I a fiend.

So, in short, I just can't seem to buy any of the arguments that paladins should cover themselves with feces when fighting evil. Not only does a noble loss sometimes mean far more than a brutal victory -- as it provides an Arthurian example, for instance -- I think goodness has intrisic qualities to it that almost ensure victory if left undiluted by what is disingenuously referred to as necessity. I also think that fighting a brutal war is a victory for evil in any event. So . . . I just can't see any reason for paladins to do other than be completely above the board.

<I>Edited an "insure" to "ensure." :D</I>
 
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Canis said:

Well, I've always thought that might very well be the case. Genial arguments between peers on the finer points, anyway. Though I doubt these arguments would take place publicly in such a way that children would be in attendance. At least not between members of the same order. They would probably present a unified face to the world, even if they privately had disagreements with each other on minor points. If they had disagreements on major points, they wouldn't all be paladins, IMO. And they certainly wouldn't be paladins of the same god.

A paladin of god A and one of god B might publicly disagree with each other, but it would still be genial and respectful. After all, even if there's disagreement on several points, they would still have more in common than not and respect each other's morals and character.
Why not?
It was good tradition in the MA that clerics disputed openly over religious questions, even in the presence of kings and empereors.
And there is nothing wrong when 2 or more clerics/Pallys interpret or weight the words of her god different.
Every Pally has his code of conduct, and even if the Church has an code every pally must follow, it isn`t said that the church get all things right, the words of the gods(visions etc) hasn`t a few misinterpretations, watered down the time they are given or such.
Or that they aren`t open to interpretation, one Pally put this virtue/part of the code higher than the other, another vice versa.
Or a pally judges that part of the church code must be broken, because the words didn`t reflect the spirit in this situation, or he could only follow a part of the code in this situation.
E.G. Paladins are normally considered to fight honorable, but also to defend the helpless, innocent...
It is not honorable to attack somebody from behind.
But what should a pally do if an killer tries to mureder someone, and his only realistic chance ist to strike him down from behind.
Or the good old it is unlawful to break in anothers house.
Did this forbid the pally to enter without allowance fom an rightful authority if there in is someone sacrificed to daemons or gods of darkness?

To the point it is not good to insult somebody who had did his best, and it is not honorable also.
A part of being good is to be polite, not unnes´cessary insulting or such..
We could spin this further, in regard of the queen the pally could force the king to declare a war to defend his honor.
How good would it be to let other people die for an insult, where the last bit of courtesy had been avoiding this?
 

A paladin cannot lie, but the pressure to say something is not unbearable for a paladin. He can smile and say nothing if he chooses.

A paladin is not always polite and is only respectful, courteous, and mindful of legitimate authority.
 

Originally posted by sword-dancer Why not?
It was good tradition in the MA that clerics disputed openly over religious questions, even in the presence of kings and empereors.
And there is nothing wrong when 2 or more clerics/Pallys interpret or weight the words of her god different.
Didn't say it was. I said they would show organizational solidarity. That's very different from not disagreeing. They can disagree all they want, privately. But disagreeing in public shows weakness. Not gonna happen between members of a solid, unified order. They will keep their disagreements behind closed doors.

And a militant order of Paladins is unlikely, IMO, to allow disagreement, Period. It's not part of the institutional mindset.
 

BiggusGeekus@Work said:
Heh! Better yet:

SORCORESS: Does this Robe of the Arch-Magi make me look fat?
PALADIN: Errrr....

PALADIN: "No, that robe does not make you look fat" your body makes you look fat :D

I read somewhere in a d20 product that paladins might be played in such a way that the Paladin was lawful in they eyes of his god and not in the ways of mortals....heck in some lands it might be the law to lie about some things...that doesn't make it right in the god's eyes necessarily.;)

Anyway...great thread...It has really made me think about how to play a paladin
 

Greetings!

Hmmm...well, Christ did what He did so that sin could be defeated, and man would be reconciled with a holy God. That is what Christ's *sacrifice* was for. Christ did not come to defeat the Roman Empire, but sin. That is like comparing apples and oranges, for Christ and paladins don't really compare.

If paladins are chiefly concerned with spirituality and the spiritual defeat of sin, then they need not wear armor, carry weapons, or in fact do anything violent, because the struggle is spiritual in nature, rather than physical. As the Scriptures say, "We struggle not against flesh and blood, but against spirits and powers and principalities". That makes a good case for a spiritually-minded Monk or an order of clerics, but it doesn't seem fitting for an order of knights striving to defeat the forces of Darkness *now* in *this age*

I'm sure the local citizenry appreciates such a paladin's sermons on righteousness, and redemption, and the pure life, but such doesn't defend them against the hordes of beastmen, orcs, monsters, and demons that conquer, rape, and plunder. There is a very real concern about the here and now, and if paladins aren't being effective in defeating the forces of Darkness on the battlefield, then they need to stay in their isolated monastery somewhere where they can peacefully pray, for they aren't going to be terribly effective on a battlefield, and they need not get in the way of warriors who want to make a real difference.

As for the Arthurian legends, well, it should be noted that their conduct was considerably different when they were fighting *another knight* who also agreed to tournament-style rules and customs, than in an open, mass battle.

In any event, Arthurian legends are nice for inspiration, but that begs the question--the enemies in a grim and brutal world are *not* going to be fighting fair, nor are they going to be necessarily fighting by the rules of the tournament. It remains that in such an environment, if a paladin commander insists on fighting with such quaint impositions, that an evil enemy can exploit such to the fullest, and crush the paladin and all of the forces loyal to him. Then, the people that the paladin is supposed to be defending, are raped, enslaved, and killed. Does it matter to them as they are being raped and crushed under oppression that the said paladin refused to compromise his idealistic views of not how war *is* but by how war *should* be? I don't think so. Somehow, the paladin's refusal to deploy effective tactics against an evil enemy is supposed to console them as they watch their daughters raped by beastmen, and their families shackled in chains?

I think even in the game, "real" people want "real" effectiveness, not spiritual platitudes. From some real world examples, from Agincourt, where the French Knights insisted on fighting by a chivalrous manner, rather than think outside the box, and even do things that they considered "unchivalrous"--like using longbowmen, or many other more creative tactics--they instead suffered crushing casualties. Their families could care less about chivalry. Their sons, their fathers, their brothers, lay slaughtered and dead in the mud of Agincourt. That is the reality that they faced, and the following military and political ramifications that swept France. Likewise, in other conflicts, from the American Civil War, to World War I and beyond, the insistence on outdated, "chivalrous" combat got entire units slaughtered, and for nothing. They died because their leaders couldn't think outside the box, and they couldn't think of fighting war in any other manner than what their beliefs of chivalry dictated--regardless of what the enemy was doing, and regardless of the realities of war.

In a similar fashion, such things can be seen at work on the fantasy battlefield, where the situation and the tactics at hand may require all sorts of thinking outside the box, and doing many things that are not "chivalrous". War often doesn't play by neat little theoretical "rules"--it is bloody, savage, grim, and brutal. He who has the best tactics, the greater force, wins. The rest are crushed into the mud of defeat and enslaved.

In ancient times, the Romans conquered the Carthaginians in part because the Carthaginians insisted on using forces and tactics that were inferior to the Romans. The result was that Carthage was stormed, half the population was slaughtered, and the other half--mostly women and children--were sold into slavery forever. Carthage was then destroyed, tilled and sown with salt, and made into a wasteland. Noone lived there for hundreds of years, and Carthage was nothing but dust. The Carthaginians were not tough enough, smart enough, innovative enough, or ruthless enough to defeat Rome. Thus, they were swept into the dust and ashes of history.

Of course, paladins can operate as anyone sees fit in their own campaigns, but it would seem that "plot protection" maintains their salvation against ruthless effective enemies that deploy all their resources in all ways possible to win. Such seems too much like "dues ex machina" to me. It isn't the paladin's spiritual beliefs that bring victory on a grim and brutal battlefield, but his weapons, his tactics, and what he actually *does* with those weapons and troops that determines who wins, and who loses. Another analogy would be the Imperial Japanese of World War II. They believed that their spiritual beliefs, their spiritual purity, their spiritual righteousness and their refusal to compromise their spiritual beliefs, would bring victory. In reality, such was no substitute for the United States' better weapons, better tactics, greater force, and the determination to use every bit of resource to bring victory. In the end, Japan was left crushed in the ashes of defeat. Their "spiritual" ideology, and their sense of chivalry as expressed in the Code of Bushido, did not save them.

Likewise, in the game, it is not what the paladin believes, or thinks, that brings the victory. It is what forces, weapons, tactics, and will, that he deploys that brings victory. To insist on operating on the battlefield with tournament-like rules, in any real sense, would bring only defeat, unless the enemy also agrees to fight by the same constraints.

That doesn't mean that the paladin must go out of his way to mirror the enemy, or "stoop to their level" but it does mean that the necessities of war will make real impositions upon the paladin's neat little idealistic world, and if the paladin wants to actually save people, and provide a better life for people, he had best take such grim considerations in mind and approach the battlefield being ready and able to think outside the box, for some elements of his cherished ideals have no business whatesoever on a grim and brutal battlefield.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

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