Paladins, Lawful Goodness, and higher standards

[jerichothebard]

, I also advocate tough spiritual quandaries that enrich the experience of playing a paladin in the first place. I should note, however, that I place the same high standards on all divine casters as is relevant to their particular faith. The clerics have just as much responsibility (if not more so) to uphold their tenets of their faith and provide a living example of what their deity represents. I also apply this philosophy to druids.

I’ve made it perfectly clear that it will be challenging to remain within the Grace of their deity and to expect tough situations. But I have a wonderful group of players who are excited about such challenges as they try and bring the game to a higher level of immersion.

I do this for all my characters. They are heroes. They are supposed to live up to a higher ideal. They are sometimes forced to make difficult choices about how to behave and what is right.

And they are really into their characters as a result - the process of making those choices seems to have bound them to their party and their characters very tightly.


As a caveat, though, I designed this campaign with that type of moral self-examination specifically in mind. It's as much an exercise for me as them.


jtb

 

[milotha]

We all know that the purpose of the Paladin Code is to allow a certain sort of DM to either:

1. Run the character for the player - "No, Dave, your Paladin of Bamble-Wheeze the Goody would never do that; what he will do is..."
2. Find excruciating rules-lawerly ways to strip him of his powers - "I'm sorry but you should have realised that in Bugbrainia wearing shoes in a private house on a weeknight after 8pm is a sign of following the Evil One. So I am going to have to strip you of your powers until you atone by defeating Noruas the Dark Lord single-handed with a putty knife!"

I get very tired with all the threads which amount to 'the Paladin in my group did something which only I knew was stupid, so should I remove all his powers forever or just let him atone after six hopeless quests?'. If you don't want PC Paladins in your game, it would be easier just to say so, than to screw them over. And it's amazing how few DMs bother to think through Paladins and their Code before allowing them in, and then wonder why the players 'play them wrong all the time'!

Quas is right that the Code is now a flavour element, and as all flavour it should be used to enhance the game, not as a stick to beat your players with!

ROTFLOL! Wow, that made my day too. I've seen so many GMs that treat Paladins this way. It's like a moth drawn to a flame. They just can resist messing with the character. I have to admit that I find this tendency a bit disturbing. I've seen some GMs that seem to enjoy doing this in the game because they can't do it in real life. I want to crush you like a bug with your moral code. Ha ha! Lawful good - take this moral ambiguity! Note to the GM: It's not fun to be stripped of your powers over something trivial. Morality is ambiguous. Listen to the character's intent and logic.

I guess I view Paladins as more like Don Quiote. Their view may not be in agreement with the rest of the world, but hey, they are harmless do-gooders, and the world could use more of that.

 

[pdkoning]

Should paladins be held to a higher standard than a LG fighter, wizard, or cleric? Why?

Does a paladin's powers support being held to a higher standard than other LG characters?
(SNIP)
And how often do you see non-paladins with the LG alignment?

Why do DMs often feel the need to "test" LG characters? (SNIP)

A higher standard? I think they should, if you don't like it. play a LG fighter / cleric. Paladins are the people with the highest morality standards in the game. Otherwise they won't be Paladins.

A game I play in has a LG monk. Altough I do not like monks, this one is played pretty well. He always walks in front, taking a lot of damage, and tries to protect the others.

About testing the LG characters: let's make it LG Paladins. They are tested because some Paladins screw the game by always being the righteous, super-lawful one. I think it is better to remove paladins from the game if both DM and most players do not like them.

On the other hand, paladins may complain about the fact that the barbarian or bard screws HIS game, by acting against the law.

 

[Umbran]

Are paladins held to a higher standard? Well, they are held to a more specific standard. Above and beyond alignment, they have a Code they have to follow. You may call it "higher", but I'm not sure that's fully apt.

Should they be held to a higher/more specific standard? I say yes, but not because the power-balance of the game requires it. I think paladins are an excellent example of a case where restriction breeds creativity rather than stifling it. While allowing most folks to do as they please is good for the game, having a few cases in the rules where the player may need to squirm a bit over his character's behavior is also a good thing.

 

[Deadguy]

ROTFLOL! Wow, that made my day too. I've seen so many GMs that treat Paladins this way. It's like a moth drawn to a flame. They just can resist messing with the character. I have to admit that I find this tendency a bit disturbing. I've seen some GMs that seem to enjoy doing this in the game because they can't do it in real life. I want to crush you like a bug with your moral code. Ha ha! Lawful good - take this moral ambiguity! Note to the GM: It's not fun to be stripped of your powers over something trivial. Morality is ambiguous. Listen to the character's intent and logic.

I guess I view Paladins as more like Don Quiote. Their view may not be in agreement with the rest of the world, but hey, they are harmless do-gooders, and the world could use more of that.

Glad I could bring a smile, milotha, Gregor!

I think too many DMs see testing the Code to be an end in itself, rather than a means to tell an interesting story. And as a certain other extatnt thread indicates, Paladins can be punished for things they don't even have any knowledge of. It seems that their Gods (and yes, I know they don't need a God, per the RAW), are a sadistic bunch who like toying with their servants just to see when they'll break. Is that the action of a Good deity?

There are enough moral challenges just managing the conflicted interests of a typical party, without actively trying to undo Paladins 'for fun'.