Paladins - likes and dislikes?

[kirinke]

Like any class, paladins are played well if the player and the DM actually communicate on what it is they want from the character. It's a two way street really. It also helps if when you're playing a paladin, all of your group is either all good or not evil. Heh. In one of the games I'm playing in, we have 1 paladin and two exalted characters, which makes for a generally happy, well-adjusted paly.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I like that the Paladin has the feel of a holy warrior in the spirit of an Arthurian knight in shining armor.

I like the roleplaying challenge of the Code.

I dislike that the Paladin is so dependent on good stats to actually be fun to play. If you do not have a number a good stats, you are going to have more fun just playing a LG Fighter or Fighter/Cleric.

I dislike that the class multiclasses poorly -- Paladin/Fighter is pretty so-so and Paladin/Cleric happens to be terrible. No other Core class multiclasses so poorly, especially with other classes that ought to be a good fit. This greatly exacerbates the inflexibility of an already inflexible class.

I dislike that the value of the Mount in all editions is so campaign dependent.

 

[Hussar]

Of any of the classes, paladin is probably the only one that you pretty much MUST sit down with your DM and hammer out the ground rules for before playing. Misunderstanding between DM's and players over alignment interpretations has caused more headaches than pretty much any other class.

For my own opinion, part of the reason is because DM's don't force players of clerics to actually play their role. There really shouldn't be much difference between a cleric of Heironious and a paladin. Same alignment, same outlook, rp-wise, they should be pretty much identical. Yet, no one has a problem with the cleric of H sneaking with the best of them, lying and doing whatever else.

If Clerics were actually played to alignment, we wouldn't need paladins.

Sorry, my own personal little rant.

 

[Drowbane]

Ahh, good ol Pally...

Likes~ First and foremost I have to go with the Concept. I can not properly express what the concept means to me... but I will give it a shot. Paladins (IMO) are akin to heroic Saints... this is a guy/gal who always does what is Right (IMO, more N/G with Lawful tendencies than L/G), especially in the face of adversity (spelling?). However, it is my view that the paladin concept can be done with any character of any race and/or class.

*Alignment: I love the Alignment restriction of the Class. As the L/G Paladin existed during my formative years, I don't know if this is real love, or just some sort of "stockholme-syndrome".

*Class Features: I dig the Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, and Immunity vs Fear abilities. Of course, these could easily become a trio of Exalted Feats. (IMC: Cloistered Clerics gain Lay on Hands as well as some features from the Healer class from Mini's HB)

~~~

Dislikes~ As I touched upon above, I don't think the paladin truely needs to be a class... anymore than the "assassin" needs to be a (prestige) class. To reiterate, I've never liked "paladin" as a class. To me, its one of those concepts that can only be fleshed out In Character by how the character lives and treats those around him. A bunch of disjointed "class features" just doesn't do it for me. Only a good roleplayer with a solid idea of the concept can pull off a paladin... regardless of what class his character happens to be. YMMV.

Furthermore, IMO, the paladin class is easily replaced by a Cleric with the proper Domains, and perhaps a few Exalted Feats.

~~~

I think I'll alter the Paladin PrC's (UA) prereqs so that a Knight / Cleric makes the best entry to the PrC. (This is for when I run a more standard D&D...)

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Like:
- Lawful Good flavour and general class concept
- A defined CoC that also pretty loose
- Divine grace and smite evil*X per day
- Playable right from go without waiting to have fun (unlike the Blackguard for example)
- Solid tanking power capable enough of fulfilling the fighter role
- Solid mounted mobility which is doubly important for a heavy armoured tank
- Reasonable selection of class skills
- Nice spell lists
- Back up healing

Dislike:
- The bad case MAD (multiple attribute dependency)
- So few skill points exaggerated by the MAD
- Weak disease related abilities especially the 'per week' part
- Except for the mount there is a lack of class specific customization options
- Poor caster level that seems to invalidate some spells (greater magic weapon, dispel magic, etc)

Ambiguous:
- The multiclass restriction has a purpose but can be cleverly gotten around
- The association makes sense but impacts on other player choices and decisions
- Turn undead at 3 levels lower is fair on the Cleric but I've noticed that it tends to either come too late or not be strong enough

 

[3d6]

I like paladins, generally speaking.

I'm not too fond of the emphasis placed on mounted combat. I've never really had campaigns that took place in rolling planes where you can use a horse to good effect. (Although the PH2 paladin variant removes that issue.)

I've always felt that the spellcasting was too weak to be all that useful. If they had full caster level instead of 1/2, I would be more happy with it.

I've always been bothered by the lack of fear-related abilities. Intimidate is not a class skill, they can't generate any fear effects. I want my paladin to strike terror into the hearts of the unrighteous, like an archon does with thier aura of menace.

I've never had any problems with the paladin code in games I've played. So long as you discuss your character with the DM and the other players and get everybody's OK, it's not a problem.

I wish paladins were more different from one another. No bonus feats and no selectable abilities mean that paladins always seem a little cookie-cutter. Heavy ability score dependancies exacerbate that, nearly all paladin's I've seen have moderately good Strength, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma, poor Dexterity, and mediocre Intelligence. They always end up in heavy armor because of the poor Dexterity. There's a real sameness about the characters. The most unusual paladin I ever played was mechanically memorably only becuase he roll astonishing ability scores (two 18s, several 16s, etc.)

 

[fusangite]

Likes
The Paladin is a great example of realizing a character archetype, narrow as it is, with a really solid literary and historical context. I don't mind narrowly specialized classes if they correspond to a real archetype and not the "guy who can jump 180' but only while singing" thing one sees in the surfeit of prestige classes our game has.

Dislikes
The Remove Disease power is downright silly. I just loved discovering that Epic Paladins could remove disease 9 times per week or whatever. This ability needs to progress geometrically rather than algebraicly.

Much more importantly, I just hate having to enforce alignment and behaviour restrictions in the game. When a GM punishes a player mechanically for disagreeing with his judgment about paladin-like conduct, no matter how correct the GM is, it never goes smoothly. Having a class over which the GM has such sweeping arbitrary authority is a real problem. I'd like to see future PHBs drop alignment and have a default paladin code with really clear behavioural parameters. That way, if you don't get around to hammering-out a code with your player, you've got solid objective criteria for when to yank the powers away and send him on a quest of attonement.

 

[Jdvn1]

I actually like the Bard class, mechanically, more than the Paladin class.

I don't like that a Paladin has to get a mount (and that it's necessarily a large part of the class) and that if you don't put ranks in Ride, that's wasted.

I dislike that multiclassing at a level after you get the mount, that the mount kind of gets screwed. (And, when that PrC/new class ends, that going back to Paladin means getting a weak mount)

I don't like the sucky spell selection.

I don't like that for such a martial class, they don't get enough martial abilities. They're too feat-deprived.

What's with Remove Disease? It's a pretty weak ability, and you only get it times/week. Per week? Way to weaken an already weak ability.

Caster and Turning levels being level/2 is also really weak. Paladins end up sucking at both of these.

I like Smite Evil (even if it is pretty few uses), and I like that if you do choose to use your mount (and ride) that it's a relatively viable option (though it sucks indoors).

 

[Keldryn]

I like the concept of the Paladin class, but the implementation of it is pretty "blah." The Paladin is supposed to be this ultimate chamption of goodness, but there really isn't anything special about the class. Plus, as with some of the other PHB classes, there isn't much incentive to stick with the class for an entire 20 levels, as all you really get are a few more uses of Smite Evil and Remove Disease and spells that are not terribly effective by the time you get them.

I think I prefer the concept of the Paladin as a prestige class -- while it may be a calling, it's also something that you need to earn the privilege of becoming. And when you become a Paladin, it's something special, not just watered-down Cleric abilities.

Also, tone down the multi-attribute dependencies as well, to just Strength and Wisdom or Strength and Charisma. Though it is nice to no longer need a 17 Charisma just to qualify for being a Paladin.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I'm experiencing something pretty different to yourself Keldryn (and others) when it comes to the spell usage. I guess because I've been playing my pally from 4th level (RttToEE) up I haven't had the complete ability to customize my gear and so I've been prioritizing the upgrades. Anyway, the access to bull's str and eagle's splendor has been really good in allowing me to concentrate my wealth on improving AC and Con (poor rolls). The idea being to avoid overlapping double ups. Typically I prep my shorter duration eagle buff to use when magic users threaten, and rely on the cleric for a longer lasting bull's str. Bless weapon is fine and having divine favour on the list means I can use the cleric scroll of divine favour with CL6 (+2). The good scouting monk usually gives us enough time and space to bang off at least 1 buff each. Being able to use my remove paralysis, delay poison and (the cleic's) FoM scrolls also eases the pressure on the melee build cleric so he can spend more actions charging and cleaving.

In short, I'm finding the spell list to play a lot better than it reads.