Paladins - likes and dislikes?

[CRGreathouse]

3) Detect evil at will is incredibly annoying because it lacks depth. I'd rather the character had to determine on their own whether an opponent is evil. {Judge, jury, executioner} is much more interesting than {spellcaster, observer, executioner}.

This is an interesting comment to me. Suppose a paladin in your campaign ran into a farmer (commoner 1) and for some reason detected evil and noticed the farmer was evil. So what? The farmer just isn't a good person, but the ability hasn't told the paladin why, or what to do about it. It's just pointed out that the farmer is evil. Why does this bother you?

For example, in my campaign, my players have noticed that the doorward to a particular noble's house detects as evil (in fact, he's LE). Sure, they don't tell him any secrets and recognize that, push come to shove, they could probably bribe him... but that doesn't seem to be out of place for an ability.

 

[Sarellion]

It´s probably because the standard answer that some paladins use when they detect an evil person is a good traditional smite.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I have to agree with the "paladin as a PrC" crowd. At least it would give the group the chance to see if a paladin would fit.

 

[Mad Mac]

Ah, the Pally. I'm going to have to award +5 courage points to the OP for having the guts to start a Paladin thread.

Like

Smite Evil--It's just fun to blast bad guys with it.

Lay on Hands--Good, balanced healing power that isn't spellcasting based.

Aura of Courage--I have to agree with whoever first said that Paladins should have more stuff like this.

PokeMount--By golly, "I choose you, Horsey-chu!" is more fun than "Ah, Intrepid Companion, my equinary soulmate! It's so good to see you again. Shame you couldn't come with me on the perilous 47 layer dungeon of 503 narrow staircases! Or the Caves of Uneven, guano-coated sliperosity....or that mountain climbing adventure...or flying to the cloud giants castle....the plane of water....anyway, I hope you're well fed, yes? The Pally petting zoo is fast becoming an important source of income for the local charity, so at least you're still fighting for the side of good...in your own way. Have another processed lump of hay that smells like an apple."

Course, I've never been a big horse person anyway, so I have no problem with upgrading to a pegasus, griffon, celestial charger, or whatever it takes to make the ability more acceptable to people. (In the sense that a more magical mount is easier to make "magical")

Divine Grace--Having super-duper saves helps give the Paladin a viable niche, and fits well with the class.

Don't Like:

Cure Disease. I mean, whatever, I'll take it...but shouldn't this just be on his spell list?

MAD--Next to the Monk, the Paladin always feels stretched too thin. Maybe make his abilities pure charisma based?

Spells--I don't actually mind the spellcasting, but the current spell system for Paladins and Rangers lacks oomph, which is generally made up for by giving them OP spells for their level, just so they have something worth using. And the half-caster level thing doesn't work that well, either. Could probably be done better.

Code of Conduct. Now, I've never played in a group that was that tough on Paladins. But based on the hot-blooded arguements I've seen on various boards, I'm thinking Wizards needs to put out some sort of explicatly lax code. Lots of lots of "Paladins can...." statements, instead of broad negatives. (In 4.0, Paladins totally like to get rip-roaring drunk and dance on the table with panties on their heads!) Something to break the Lawful Stupid stereotype in half.

 

[Nightfall]

I wish more Paladins were like Scarred Lands paladins. They have a primary god of paladins and then there are those gods/philosophies they can follow provided they still honor Corean.

Well that and the fact the Four Swords/Four Metals of Corean churches rock!

Mithril Knight, ho! Silver Knight ho!, Iron Knight, ho! Gold Knight ho!

 

[Hussar]

Actually, I agree. Scarred Lands did do a good job on Paladins. Too campaign specific to broaden really, but good nonetheless.

I'd like to add my voice to liking the summonable mount. While I understand that it hurts some people's suspension of disbelief, it just reduces the PITA factor of a mount by leaps and bounds.

And, let's face it, anything that makes paladins easier to play is a good thing.

 

[FireLance]

I will admit that the paladin will not suit some players, DMs and campaigns, in particular, players with a narrow interpretation of the paladin's code, adversarial DMs who think their job is to make the paladin PC lose his class abilities, and "pragmatic" campaigns where being good is foolish instead of an advantage.

I personally like paladins, though.

Dislikes:
Turn Undead is not really useful for a paladin, apart from powering divine feats. The three-level lag behind a cleric of equivalent level means that it is usually impossible for a paladin to affect an undead creature that a cleric has difficulty turning. It's essentially only useful against weak undead minions, assuming the party encounters any in the first place.

Divine Health and Remove Disease also come up rarely, unless the campaign includes many opponents that cause disease. Also, I have a personal dislike of x times per week abilities in general, as they are harder to keep track of than those that refresh daily.

The blanket prohibition against associating with evil. This rules out the possibility of a paladin working with an evil creature against a common foe, showing him the ways of good, and possibly redeeming him.

Likes:
The concept of the paladin as a character dedicated to the difficult, straight and narrow path of Law and Good, and drawing strength and power his commitment to these ideals. For this reason, I don't like the idea of paladins of every alignment.

Detect Evil is a good way to alert the party to the presence of evil where it shouldn't be, allowing them to foil ambushes and warning them that they should be cautious. Naturally, I don't run games which would be ruined if the party discovers that a particular NPC is evil.

Smite Evil is a good offensive ability, and synergizes very well with the paladin's special mount because it provides a flat damage bonus instead of extra dice.

Divine Grace is a good defensive ability, and Lay on Hands provides extra healing, which is always useful (and makes a pretty good touch attack against undead creatures, too). Aura of Courage helps support the idea of the courageous champion of good who knows no fear.

I also like the Summon Mount ability as it is an actual advantage now, instead of a potential liability.

Wishlist:
More paladin spells that can be cast as a swift action and are verbal only (to avoid the messiness of dropping a weapon or shield to cast a spell).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I like the class, overall, though I strongly dislike the "Pokemount" (and all other "class feature" creatures). I also don't restrict its multiclassing options.

In accord with various articles published over the years in Dragon, games such as AU/AE, and 3rd party published game supplements like Book of the Righteous, I wish the class had been written to be a general Holy Warrior class, with different options depending not only upon alignment, but also upon the particular divinity or philosophy the PC follows.

 

[Nightfall]

Hussar,

Yeah well it's about time the holy warriors of LG and the rangers of all stripe got a little more respect. I'm glad SL gave it to them.

 

[Particle_Man]

I generally like the idea of playing a paladin, but...

1) the remove disease power is weak. And there is no "knockout" power that gives a positive reason to play to level 20.
2) The negative reason is the "no multi-class" restriction (barring certain feats). This is weak to me.
3) Holy Avengers used to be awesome. Now they are massively overpriced for what little they can do.
4) The code of conduct is too ambiguous, leading to disputes between DMs and players that have different ideas on what it means. I would prefer something clear and unambiguous - the Knight restrictions do this well. The paladin restrictions don't have to be the same, but something clear would be good here.

I'm not a huge fan of the special mount, but PHB II gives me another option instead of it. And Complete Warrior gives Spell-like abilities instead of Spells.