Paladins = pesudo leaders?

[DracoSuave]

There's also two feats that allow the paladin to add his charisma modifier to damage healed, twice, with lay on hands, giving the Cha-Wis paladin some of the best peak-healing in an encounter in the game. However, because it's per day it's still basically a fall-back option, and at later levels leaders catch up and surpass this amount too. And, not to be forgotten, it's melee only (big drawback there).

Still, the paladin's a great defender; leader is a good subrole for a front-liner like that.

Well, a Cleric and a bear Shaman can out perform the spike healing of a Paladin out of the box without spending feats.

For a Cleric: HS+1d6+Wis is better than HS+Cha+Cha unless Charisma is 18. But that's before spending feats, which can make the Cleric HS+2d6+Wis+Cha.

For a Bear: HS+Con and 1d6+Con is a LOT of hps gained, if not to one target. And again, that's without feats. This can take care of the Paladin AND the spillage that LoH would have taken care of.

Warlords themselves can do HS+1d6+Attribute depending on their build.

I wouldn't say Paladins can out spike-heal a proper leader, but only that a Paladin that is built to maximise Lay on Hands use will, once in a while, out-heal a leader who is spec'd towards offense or damage-avoidance and not healing.

So, yes, a half-assed healer can occasionally out-do someone not focussed in healing. But that 'not focussed in healing' will still out-do the paladin most of the time, and will prevent the need for healing in the long term, while ending battles quicker.

Lay on Hands is good utility for a Defender, I find it's well served on the Paladin himself as a replacement for a Second Wind as a minor action, thus freeing the leader to do their better heals on other characters. It's a great suppliment, but a terrible replacement even when maxxed out.

 

[eamon]

I don't have a problem with lay on hands. The peak power I'm referring to here is the fact that you can use it quite often per encounter. What I see happening is that the leader does the "normal" healing, but when the inevitable really hard encounter comes by, the paladin can simply use his (daily) resources all in that one encounter - and in that one (hard) encounter, the paladin actually heals more than most leaders. For a chaladin, who'se primary stat is Cha, HS + 2x Cha is quite a lot, and can slightly out heal most leaders even in a single burst, though not the cleric (that's if the paladin spends feats and the leader does not). In any case, a paladin around 4-8th level might well have 20Cha and 16-18Wis, for quite a bit of usages with quite a large bonus.

In any case, it's obviously roughly as strong as a leaders heal (depending on level and what the leader's built like), so the higher number of usages in a single encounter can matter. No, he's not a full replacement - it's a daily power, not an encounter power, but it really is quite good.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Paladin/Hospitaliers who have invested several feats and magic item choices to beef up their healing can heal better than most leaders.

Mine is the dedicated healer in the party, with a warlord providing the back-up healing role.

DS

 

[Felon]

Yes indeed, paladins can provide healing in moderate amounts. And a moderate amount is the right amount of healing to have. If the party has a primary leader, it's best for him to be freed up to select powers with more proactive (i.e. offensive) benefits. Paladins are welcome party additions because of this.

Now, this business where a defender is getting 4x damage on a daily attack generates a pretty high reading on my bullcrapometer, as this is something denied to many a striker.

 

[Destil]

4x the static stat bonus (double two stat bonuses), using a combination of encounter/daily resources and partly from a fighter paragon path, in fact it's 5x with Holy Strike.

It looks like this at 14th with appropriate magic gear:
Ardent Vow (minor, +Wis damage to next attack)
Channel Divinity: Divine Strength (minor, +Str damage to next attack)
Furious Assault (+1W on a hit, free on a hit)
Martyr's Retribution (standard & spend a healing surge) +20 vs. AC, Damage 5d12+25 (+6 Str +5 wis +3 magic, +11 from the above), half (4d12) on a miss, target subject to his crappy Cha based divine sanction for 1 round.

It's a decent attack, but not insane for the level and drains quite a few resources. The avenger in the same group is routinely getting damage in the low 100s on his crits and the rogue can pull off this sort of damage with an encounter. If anything it's an overpowered fighter paragon path, rather than the paladin build that's the problem.

[sblock]====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
StrikeyPal, level 14
Half-Orc, Paladin, Pit Fighter
Student of the Sword: Student of Two-Handed Weapons

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 11, Dex 16, Int 9, Wis 20, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 11.


AC: 30 Fort: 24 Reflex: 21 Will: 23
HP: 104 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +11, Insight +17, Intimidate +15, Endurance +12, Athletics +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +6, Bluff +8, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +12, Heal +12, History +6, Nature +12, Perception +12, Stealth +8, Streetwise +8, Thievery +8

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Mighty Challenge
Level 6: Focused Expertise (Fullblade)
Level 8: Power Attack
Level 10: Student of the Sword
Level 11: Untiring Virtue
Level 12: Heavy Blade Opportunity
Level 14: Honored Foe

POWERS
Lay on Hands: Ardent Vow
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Holy Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Radiant Smite
Paladin daily 1: Blood of the Mighty
Paladin utility 2: Bless Weapon
Paladin encounter 3: Strength from Valor
Paladin daily 5: Martyr's Retribution
Paladin utility 6: Shield of Discipline
Paladin encounter 7: Force of Arms
Paladin daily 9: Knightly Intercession
Paladin utility 10: Righteous Indignation
Paladin encounter 13: Zealous Smite (replaces Radiant Smite)

ITEMS
Winged Layered Plate Armor +3, Bradaman's Fullblade +3, Javelin (5)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======[/sblock]EDIT: Were you talking about 4W?

The 4W level 1 paladin daily does nothing on a miss, rather than half (this is the real drawback, not the piddly 5 damage).

Both strikers who use big weapons and want big damage in one hit get sweet bonuses on top of their 3[W] (half on a miss) level 1 dailies (Barbarian rages and Avenger's effect powers). I think a basic 4[W] is in line for what they can do (and expect to possible see one with the two-hander ranger build), but I'd guess the designers were going for making powers that were sexy rather than just put out big numbers (though with damage bonuses from the rage/effects you'll actually end up ahead if you use these well).

Rangers get a 2[W] with two attacks right at 1, which is better. 4d12 with two waraxes, half on a miss and double the static bonuses, plus better odds to trigger quarry.

So I can't see a 4W attack with two drawbacks breaking any sort of mold. In fact it looks about right for a off-striker at 1st.

The level 5 costs a surge. This was a pretty steep cost back when all Paladins had lay on hands, but for an Ardent paladin it's not a huge deal. So it may be a little overpowered... The next one is at 15th by which point 4[W] isn't such a big deal.

 

[Felon]

The 4W level 1 paladin daily does nothing on a miss, rather than half (this is the real drawback, not the piddly 5 damage).

It's reliable, so "nothing on a miss" is a given, and thus doesn't count as a drawback. Much the opposite, IMO, as I tend think it's actually far better to keep a powerful attack until it actually connects than have to give it up for an unimpressive consolation prize after one failed application. But like I said, that's pretty much a matter of personal opinion. The designers' probably thought that nicking yourself every time you try to use it would be more prohibitive than it actually is.

I used "4x" instead of "4[W]" so as not to leave the implement strikers out in the cold, but who the heck am I trying to kid there?