Paladins - to be, or not to be?

[Minigiant]

Where is the "lawful is the most important as the code is most important" option.

 

[mlund]

Where is the "lawful is the most important as the code is most important" option.

In the "excluded from the poll because it would garner too many votes" bucket, of course.

- Marty Lund

 

[FireLance]

Option 5. The existence of a code is important. The Lawful Goodness of the code is not.

Yes. That said, I'd prefer paladins to be tied to virtues (like in 4e Essentials) due to the (to me) inherent heroic nature of the paladin class. Once you've determined the virtues that a paladin is supposed to champion, alignment and deity will follow. Not all virtues would require a paladin to be lawful good, but (again, IMO) many would.

 

[nnms]

Three threads all talking about the same thing (paladin alignment)? I guess some crossposting is inevitable:

For those appealing to tradition to justify only Lawful Good paladins, you may find it useful to know that Gygax had a pretty strange idea about what good meant.

The old addage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners of Evil alignment that have surrrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before thay can backslide

Dragonsfoot • View topic - Q&A with Gary Gygax, Part II

Killing the repentant so they don't have the opportunity to backslide?

If someone did that in our world, we'd call them evil, not good.

 

[GSHamster]

Yes. That said, I'd prefer paladins to be tied to virtues (like in 4e Essentials) due to the (to me) inherent heroic nature of the paladin class. Once you've determined the virtues that a paladin is supposed to champion, alignment and deity will follow. Not all virtues would require a paladin to be lawful good, but (again, IMO) many would.

I agree with this. My virtues that would define all paladins would be something like, "Faith, Honour, Courage, Sacrifice". All paladins would hold those virtues as ideals, but I don't think you have to necessarily be Lawful Good to have those virtues. I do think a paladin should be non-Evil though.

 

[Ratskinner]

So far in D&D, a paladin is a basically a Fighter with some added Divine Juice. Personally, I'm fine with leaving it that way. I'd even be okay if "Paladin" became a theme. However, it doesn't sound like they're aiming to give themes that much weight.

 

[mlund]

I agree with this. My virtues that would define all paladins would be something like, "Faith, Honour, Courage, Sacrifice". All paladins would hold those virtues as ideals, but I don't think you have to necessarily be Lawful Good to have those virtues. I do think a paladin should be non-Evil though.

Hm ... Faith, Honour, Courage, Sacrifice ... I think just about every member of the Evil Pantheon has folks that believe in that sort of thing. There are a few outliers that probably couldn't handle the honor part, but that's about it.

I mean, heck, Gruumsh might be a cowardly, indiscriminate git but he's probably got numerous fearless worshipers willing to lay down their lives in battle to honor his vow of revenge against the inferior gods and their peoples. Rip out an eye and take up a spear, ye paladins of He Who Watches. No quarter shall be asked or given.

- Marty Lund

 

[GSHamster]

Hm ... Faith, Honour, Courage, Sacrifice ... I think just about every member of the Evil Pantheon has folks that believe in that sort of thing. There are a few outliers that probably couldn't handle the honor part, but that's about it.

I mean, heck, Gruumsh might be a cowardly, indiscriminate git but he's probably got numerous fearless worshipers willing to lay down their lives in battle to honor his vow of revenge against the inferior gods and their peoples. Rip out an eye and take up a spear, ye paladins of He Who Watches. No quarter shall be asked or given.

Excellent point. Clearly I'm missing a virtue. Maybe Justice? Or maybe just Good?

 

[mlund]

Excellent point. Clearly I'm missing a virtue. Maybe Justice? Or maybe just Good?

Eh, the problem is that in a world full of Good and Evil deities with equal validity in their claims to divinity (or a world with no deities and just two equal and opposite cosmological moral imperatives at work) their definitions of "Justice" and even "Good" are horribly subjective.

Tiamat doesn't acquire her worshipers by telling them "Join team evil, we've got cookies!" She wins followers by convincing people that "good" and "evil" are just artificial constructs that the weak console themselves with at night because they are too lazy and cowardly to go out into the world and acquire what they want. Thus enlightened and liberated her followers (ie - slaves) go forth and serve her ends.

Gruumsh's idea of justice is that the other gods and races that cheated him out of his part creation should suffer the fate they tried to wrongly inflict upon him in the first place - being cut out of the world. From his cultural and moral outlook elves, humans, and dwarves are thieves, cowards, and oppressors while orcs are victims fighting back.

Both of these evil deities value followers who share their ideas of what is "good" and "just" and desire servants (read: "slaves") who unwavering upheld codes of conduct they handed down and smote their enemies.

Let's not even get started in on Paladins of Bane.

- Marty Lund

 

[Sunseeker]

While I think that specifically the word "Paladin" might belong to law and goodlyness, I do think that the idea of a heavy-armored, divinely-empowered melee combatant is something any alignment should have, and it shouldn't be a Cleric!