Paladins - to be, or not to be?

[FireLance]

Excellent point. Clearly I'm missing a virtue. Maybe Justice? Or maybe just Good?

I'd go with Compassion, myself.

No doubt, any virtue can be twisted to serve evil (go and play Ultima V for an example). And maybe that's a feature rather than a bug because it allows people to play evil paladins if they really want to.

However, if you go by the regular definitions of the virtues, the default approach would result in a heroic character who strives to live up to high ideals. And that's all I'm hoping for.

 

[Gadget]

I must say I like the idea of paladin's a virtuous and heroic knights of Chivalry and honor, but I'm not a fan of bringing back the classic Cartesian Coordinates Alignment System, with its Lawful Stupid, er, Good being the catch all for that stuff. I'm definitely not a fan of the watered down and false symmetry of having a Paladin of every alignment, so I guess I'll add my voice to those who want something along the lines of the Essentials Virtues.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Valor, Compassion, Honesty, Honor, Justice, Sacrifice, Humility and Spirituality.

Just ask Lord British.

 

[Serendipity]

Still don't see why we need both traditional paladins and trad clerics.

 

[Incenjucar]

Still don't see why we need both traditional paladins and trad clerics.

Some people don't want to be spellcasters in armor?

 

[FireLance]

Still don't see why we need both traditional paladins and trad clerics.

Because some of us see "servant of a god" and "champion of virtue" as separate, interesting and viable character concepts.

 

[Serendipity]

Some people don't want to be spellcasters in armor?

You mean a paladin? Paladins are apparently going to retain being spellcasters who can turn undead in full armor. The only difference between the two is that the paladin emphasizes the martial over the spellcasting and undead turning while the cleric flips that around.

Because some of us see "servant of a god" and "champion of virtue" as separate, interesting and viable character concepts.

Sure, they are totally separate character concepts. But do they need two classes to express what is, thematically, pretty much the same thing with minor emphasis differences? I don't think so.

It's certainly less of a stretch than clerics being both armored battle priests AND temple spellcasters.

 

[Psychman]

2. But I should say my view of the Paladin has been tempered for years by RuneQuest which has for many religions positions of Priest and Rune Lord, the martial Champion of a God/Cult who is supported by the Cult to devote his/her life about seeking out its enemies and Defending its interests.

With this you are also able to have more complexity in "Alignment" where Gods and Faiths who look after their own people but view a Neighbour who does things differently as the epitome of Evil, and their is Divine proof of their assertions because their Champions get holy assistance when fighting the "evil" guys across the border.

I'm reluctant to demonstrate this with a real world example, and if it crosses lines I'm sorry. But the 2 political camps in the US seem to be an example, both want the Country to do well, but are completely at odds over how to do that, and appear to accuse the other of being totally corrupt and "evil". I am not stating any actual position with this statement, just describing an example of diametrically opposed but both non-Evil groups.

 

[GSHamster]

Still don't see why we need both traditional paladins and trad clerics.

Because Michael Carpenter and Paksenarrion are not clerics.

 

[Serendipity]

Because Michael Carpenter and Paksenarrion are not clerics.

I can't speak to the first example, as I've no idea who that is, but I'll agree on Paks. Though it has always seemed to me that Paks was designed to be a D&D Paladin, at least in terms of inspiration.

In any case, no, I don't think we need two classes made of "holy warriors" - but if we do have them (and we do) can't we make them more diverse? Having largely the same abilities, and motivations, and modus operandi, but in different proportions to one another makes the differences bland. I would like playing one to feel different than playing another one, irrespective of role playing. However you choose to play a paladin or cleric, as described right now, the abilities wielded don't sound different enough to me to make a worthy enough distinction for separate classes.