Paladins - to be, or not to be?

[TerraDave]

Option 5. The existence of a code is important. The Lawful Goodness of the code is not.

This is pretty much it, as I have said in the other thread(s).

 

[Hautamaki]

In my perfect world, Paladin is a prestige class available to multi-class fighter-clerics that worship a particular lawful good deity. There would be other prestige classes available to fighter-clerics who worship other deities. Ranger, for a nature deity for example, or Blackguard for an evil deity.

 

[Mercule]

Make it a theme. I played a 3e Thief/Acrobat who was generally referred to as "the paladin" because of his honor and virtue. Paladin is a devout champion.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I work in an office, but when people ask me what I do, I don't say I'm an "Office Worker", I tell them my more specific job that is within the office. "Office Worker" would be a class name, but there are many, many different jobs and duties Office Workers do. And its the same with Fighters, Rogue, and Paladins.

A fighter is an "Office Worker". He may wield the Swingline Stapler. She may be the Fiendish Misfiler. He may be the Speed Typist or He Who Sucks Up Most To The Boss.

A paladin is the Office Worker with Prodigious PowerPoint Proficiency. Oh, sure, others may excel at Excel; they might know how to make pie charts and graphs. But the paladins PowerPoint skill simply places him in a UNIQUE postion that other Office Workers simply do not have. The Paladin accomplishes presentations that a mere bullet-pointed email memo cannot do.

The Excel-using Office Worker serves a wholly different function in the Office. His number-crunching may be seen as irreplaceable - but he is not simply another flavor of paladin because he, too, uses software rather than mechanical tools like the copy machine or manipulates office politics. The Paladin was intended to be a singular class simply because he can masterfully incorporate music and dynamic animations into his work which others could not without also horning in on the paladins Powerpoint schtick and actually diluting the purpose of having the paladin class in the first place.

Or something like that.

 

[am181d]

A fighter is an "Office Worker". He may wield the Swingline Stapler. She may be the Fiendish Misfiler. He may be the Speed Typist or He Who Sucks Up Most To The Boss.

A paladin is the Office Worker with Prodigious PowerPoint Proficiency. Oh, sure, others may excel at Excel; they might know how to make pie charts and graphs. But the paladins PowerPoint skill simply places him in a UNIQUE postion that other Office Workers simply do not have. The Paladin accomplishes presentations that a mere bullet-pointed email memo cannot do.

The Excel-using Office Worker serves a wholly different function in the Office. His number-crunching may be seen as irreplaceable - but he is not simply another flavor of paladin because he, too, uses software rather than mechanical tools like the copy machine or manipulates office politics. The Paladin was intended to be a singular class simply because he can masterfully incorporate music and dynamic animations into his work which others could not without also horning in on the paladins Powerpoint schtick and actually diluting the purpose of having the paladin class in the first place.

Or something like that.

My objection is that the Paladin's job description overlaps too heavily with other classes. If I had my way, Paladins wouldn't be able to do clerical work.

 

[Wiseblood]

2.

To me, Paladin is a class name. It's meta. It's not a designation of who or what you are because it's too broad a descriptor.

I work in an office, but when people ask me what I do, I don't say I'm an "Office Worker", I tell them my more specific job that is within the office. "Office Worker" would be a class name, but there are many, many different jobs and duties Office Workers do. And its the same with Fighters, Rogue, and Paladins.

To me, Paladin is also a class name. That class name carries connotations that extend beyond meta. It is a very narrow descriptor. Warrior is a broad descriptor. Knowing the defenition of the word outside of D&D's class structure is why I say this. It is also why the class name Warlord is so repugnant to me.

 

[mlund]

Paladins are a Small Tent Class, while Clerics and Fighters are Big Tent Classes. I don't expect as much diversity and options in building a Paladin as a Cleric or a Fighter so I don't mind if his unique niche between the two seems smaller or overlapped in large part because it is smaller.

- Marty Lund

 

[underfoot007ct]

My objection is that the Paladin's job description overlaps too heavily with other classes. If I had my way, Paladins wouldn't be able to do clerical work.

Yes, absolutely NO "Clerical work", no filing, no typing, no printing, and not even checking the emails.


I'm sorry, I just felt I had to...

 

[Neonchameleon]

Lemony Paladin. I'm with the side that says that the code is what matters, not the God. And that you can divorce them from Clerics if you take the Paladins being an embodiment of virtue rather than of divinity.

The Warpriest says "My God, aid me in doing your works." By contrast the Paladin says "This is who I am. And while I still have breath in my body here I stand. I can do no other." Their very adherence to their dream empowers them to stand and keep fighting where another would have lain down their life.

And dreams differ. The benefits of a Paladin of Compassion aren't the same as a Paladin of Valour.

This also dictates the Blackguard. Ordinary people just don't have the focus to become a Blackguard. A Blackguard is a Paladin with a broken dream. When you choose your Paladin's Virtue you also choose their vice. Once in a lifetime they may fall, once they may redeem themselves (no revolving doors please). If they fall a second time, that is it - but any fall and/or redemption is player initiated.

Also with DM agreement as not all campaigns will be suitable, a player is allowed to spend the first adventure as a Blackguard and then become a Paladin without this counting against the one redemption limit ("They killed my sister - they will die" being an origin for "I'm not letting anyone else's sister be killed")

Blackguards get different bonusses than Paladins.

Blackguard vices include:

• Wrath ("The world is base and bad and vile. And I will purify it.")
• Vengeance ("How dare you destroy that which I love? I will pursue you to the end of the earth." (depressingly common for defeated Paladins of Valour))
• Greed ("I have spent myself on the world/done mighty deeds. Now It. Owes. Me. I deserve this.")
• Lust ("The dream is a lie. There is neither good nor evil. Merely what you can take and hold.")
• Pride ("I have defeated the legions sent before me. And as undefeated we can Storm The Gates Of Hell!/Walk into the Dark Lord's Castle/Whatever")

Yes, I did filch from the Seven Deadly Sins for the vices. There are fewer because no matter how I try I can't work out how to make e.g. Sloth into a compelling vice for an adventurer. But Paladins and Blackguards both share one core thing. They are all determinators, able by strength of will and conviction to throw off things that would stop an ordinary man.

Note: I'd like credit if anyone wants to take my ideas. But if that's impossible, feel free to steal them just as I built on the back of the 4e paladin...

Not all virtues would require a paladin to be lawful good, but (again, IMO) many would.

Indeed. Or you just dump Lawful Good and draw up the codes for your virtues. And now I have the idea of Indiana Jones as a Paladin of Restoration ("It belongs in a museum!"), alongside the Ninja Librarians of Ioun who would in 4e have been Avengers.

Hm ... Faith, Honour, Courage, Sacrifice ... I think just about every member of the Evil Pantheon has folks that believe in that sort of thing. There are a few outliers that probably couldn't handle the honor part, but that's about it.

I mean, heck, Gruumsh might be a cowardly, indiscriminate git but he's probably got numerous fearless worshipers willing to lay down their lives in battle to honor his vow of revenge against the inferior gods and their peoples. Rip out an eye and take up a spear, ye paladins of He Who Watches. No quarter shall be asked or given.

I see no problem here. Paladins of dark gods make compelling adversaries.