Paper Minions - WT?

[ryryguy]

It seems like your Tough Minions are no longer minions. What does it add to an encounter to use them?

If you're so concerned about hiding minions' "minionness" from your players, it seems to me you'd be better off not using them at all.

But again, why not try them out as written first and see if you actually encounter problems during play?

 

[Lurker37]

The other thing about minions is that they do a fixed amount of damage when they hit, instead of a random amount. This is presumably so having a dozen minions in an encounter doesn't slow down gameplay.

 

[KarinsDad]

We're not talking about a complex template here...we're talking about saying at a certain level difference a creature would be considered to have 1 hit point and won't take damage on a miss. I can't imagine anyone needing to think too hard about that no matter what the creature is. Is there anything else that seperates a minion from a non-minion?

They do less damage (about 1/3rd die max + Str). They never critical. They often do not have the special abilities that others of their race have (but, sometimes do). They tend to only do melee/range damage.

All in all, they are cardboard cutups that only affect combat through sheer numbers.

 

[Blackeagle]

We're not talking about a complex template here...we're talking about saying at a certain level difference a creature would be considered to have 1 hit point and won't take damage on a miss. I can't imagine anyone needing to think too hard about that no matter what the creature is. Is there anything else that seperates a minion from a non-minion?

Minions do fixed damage. I think that's the only other hard and fast rule. They have average AC per level, so if you're minionizing a soldier or other creature with unusually high AC, you'd need to reduce it. Just going through the ones in KotS there are other abilities characteristics that seem to be common to most (though not all of them). A lot of them have some sort of mob ability (adjacent creatures of the same type add to attack, damage, or defense). They tend to have fewer attacks/abilities than non-minion creatures.

You know, just going through KotS, I'm beginning to believe the reason we don't have a minion template is that there isn't one. The minions seem to be custom built rather than adapted versions of regular monsters.

 

[grickherder]

The rationale you just presented sounds good on the surface. But, it has holes. For example, it gives metagaming information to the players that they should not have which in turn will result in metagaming tactical decision making.

Why? Every game has a different metagame. What constitutes desirable or undesirable metagame information for the players to have varies by each game (and even by different gaming groups). Just because you didn't want them to know certain metagame information in completely different rules (ie 3.5) doesn't mean it's bad for them to know them in 4th edition. I for one think the metagame information given by the minion rules is a good thing for the players to have, use, puzzle out and act upon. Why have presumptions about 4th edition based on what one expects out of 3rd?

 

[KarinsDad]

It seems like your Tough Minions are no longer minions. What does it add to an encounter to use them?

What does it add to an encounter to use a Brute?

If you're so concerned about hiding minions' "minionness" from your players, it seems to me you'd be better off not using them at all.

So, you think that just because I see what I consider an exploitable rule, I should not have the same fun of 10 opponents attacking my PCs that occurs at other tables.

Do you actually have a constructive suggestion?

But again, why not try them out as written first and see if you actually encounter problems during play?

Because I've been playing DND for over 30 years (and have written a 3rd party rule book) and think I am capable of understanding rules that are exploitable.

1 hit wonders will be exploitable, especially when the synergies of a half dozen splat books hit the market. It really is inevitable.


In fact, minions are already exploitable by the DM. Unlike non-minions, minions take away the advantages that many players have given their PCs with their At Will selections.

For example, Reaping Strike, Tide of Iron, Lance of Faith, and Righteous Brand (and many other powers) lose their non-minion punch when used against minions. In effect, the players of PCs with these abilities are penalized when the DM throws minions at the group.


Cleave, on the other hand, will auto-cleave a minion next to a Fighter since the Fighter did not "miss", killing two minions with a single blow. So, a player of a Fighter might be coerced into taking Cleave, just so that he too does not lose the punch of an At Will ability.

In other words, Cleave becomes a no brainer power once people understand how useful it is against minions. One of the design goals of 4E was to get rid of no brainer abilities.

KotS has 15 encounters out of 23 with minions. WotC is pushing this concept and of course, players are going to be forced to respond.


I predict that future optimal or even just average builds on the Internet (and in games around the world) will always if possible have an anti-minion component which means that other character options will be ignored.

The incentive for that will not happen as much with a house rule like the one I posted.

 

[KarinsDad]

What constitutes desirable or undesirable metagame information for the players to have varies by each game (and even by different gaming groups). Just because you didn't want them to know certain metagame information in completely different rules (ie 3.5) doesn't mean it's bad for them to know them in 4th edition.

Sure it does.

You just said so yourself. It varies by even different groups. For my group, I don't want my group using the same tired old tactics game in and game out because the game system has such an obvious insta-kill hole in it (or rather, the hit opponent was not insta-killed, therefore he is not a minion, hence it's ok to use an encounter or daily power against it. How repetitive and boring zzzzzzzzzzzzz).

 

[grickherder]

Because I've been playing DND for over 30 years (and have written a 3rd party rule book) and think I am capable of understanding rules that are exploitable.

1 hit wonders will be exploitable, especially when the synergies of a half dozen splat books hit the market. It really is inevitable.

First of all, 30 years of D&D experience might only serve to put up preconceptions that impair your ability to see how a new set of rules might operate quite well. This is evident in your use of "exploitable" as a negative, undesirable adjective. As well as your categorization of certain information as metagame knowledge you don't want your players to have.

It is supposed to be used in play that way. Players and the GMs are supposed to use these characteristics and how they interact. There's not exploitation going on at all because it's not negative. It's a good thing. They're simply using it, not exploiting it.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

What does it add to an encounter to use a Brute?

[....]

The problem I have with your post is that the same could be said if you replace minion with any other form of monster. Certain attacks are better against certain monsters. Its sort of a rock-paper-scissors type of deal, and it applies for every class and role, and its one of the features of 4ed. It adds a nice tactical element to the game that wasn't as apparent before.

 

[Zogmo]

Welcome to 4E.

Thanks!