Paper Minions - WT?

[Vanuslux]

My only gripe is that minions should have been handled as a template rather than having 16th level monsters that have one hit point in the MM. Would it really have been so much more difficult to stat everything appropriate to its level then have a single run that says if the characters are fighting a creature five levels below their own then they are treated like minions (one hp, never hurt on a miss, etc). I mean...I like the idea of there being mook rules in 4E for when heroes fight hordes of things far beneath their level, but I think it's ridiculous not to design every creature without the possibility of it facing off against adventurers equally powerful to it in mind.

Overall I'm liking 4E, but I think in some cases they try so hard to make things simpler that that they end up making simplicity more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Storm-Bringer]

That's one interpretation.

How about this one: we have no evidence from the Star Wars movies how many hit points the good guys lost, if any. Why? Because hit points are what you spend to make the shot that killed you miss you (or graze you) instead. So there's no way to tell whether a miss is a Miss or a Hit that did damage... in the end, both look like misses. Likewise, a scratch to the arm could be a Hit (it would have killed you but you spent it down to something ineffectual) or a Miss (it didn't do significant damage so it doesn't do at least 1 hp). There's no way to tell because Hit Points, and thus Hits and Misses, are abstract. The one thing that is not abstract is when you get taken below 1 hit point: then we know that something connected and you're gravely hurt.

We know exactly how many hit points they lost. Zero. It's a story. They didn't have hit points to begin with. They would have been killed by a blaster to the face exactly like any stormtrooper. But the stormtroopers never hit them. That is script immunity in action, not hit points.

That is why comparisons to other media are ultimately limiting and self-defeating. The movie Han Solo didn't have hit points. Or, he had 35 billion. It doesn't really matter, because we aren't watching the transcript of George Lucas' game.

So, what we have is the context, and a discussion of the effects a given mechanic has within that context.

For example, in the context of the Ranger Blade Cascade power, if the minions were enough levels lower, the Ranger could wipe out 95% of them, no matter how many there are, because they go down on any amount of damage, and the Ranger can continue attacking until a miss. I would say minions are not a corner case exploit like PunPun in that instance. Once a day, that ranger is a goblin/orc/kobold genocide machine.

 

[LowSpine]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, I bet it has, but minions are just the Crazy 88s in Kill Bill. One swipe and they are down - but they just keep coming (and too stupid to think stuff that I'm off).

It is as simple as that.

At level 1 if you are fighting 20, 25 Kobold Minions you aren't going to want to keep track of all their hps - and that will go for all levels.

The higher level minions survive because they have higher defences.

 

[el-remmen]

Other than that, there was absolutely no danger of the stormtroopers landing a shot on the heroes. Because they were never a credible threat.

It has nothing to do with hit points. It has to do with the minions everyone uses as an example being utterly unable to pose any danger to the protagonists.

If they were no threat, why were they running from them?

Of course, even if Han and Luke and Leia and Chewy had not run and could not be shot they would have been grabbed and taken to Darth Vader, who perhaps was a threat to them?

Actually, from your interpretation of events, Darth Vader is only ever really a threat (at least in A New Hope) to Ben Kenobi and some rebel pirates (and perhaps some imperial officers ).

 

[KarinsDad]

I like the design goal of minions. I just do not like some aspects of them caused by the 1 hit point mechanic:

1) Players use the same tactics over and over. For example, do NOT use your Daily Power unless you know your opponent is NOT a minion. Ditto for Encounter Powers unless the PC is in dire straits.

2) Find AoE or other attacks that will wipe out many or all of the Minions quickly, then deal with the big fish. As an example, every PC attacks with a ranged weapon on round one, targeting a different foe. This tactic is good ONLY because of the 4E 1 hit point minion mechanic. In 3E, this tactic would have been terrible to use.

3) Every threatening encounter has to have either a non-minion (or several) in the group, or a boatload of minions. The BBEG cannot just send 3 or 4 minion Giants into the town to deal with the PCs and really challenge them for more than a few rounds (the BBEG not knowing that 3 or 4 minions just make the PCs yawn as designed). They are freaking Giants. 3 or 4 should be more than a one or two round nuisance, regardless of the minion rules governing them. Sure, the PCs can easily handle them, I just find "every foe falls over when touched" way too easily.

And the tactics sound so repetitive. Use the same tactics to defeat easy foes quickly. Even in KotS, it states over and over again that the "Minions should be sent in first". Sure, that might be a valid NPC tactic, but it gets old after a while as a player to see that NPC tactic come at the PCs over and over again. Even if the DM switches it up some, the players will be LOOKING to easy-whittle down the opposition because the game system is designed for it.

I'm not keen on the idea of the players knowing that since foes could be red shirts or not, that they should tactically play the game different and take that into account. Sure, some foes are weaker then others. But, not cardboard. It gives an incentive for the players to find unique ways to do one point or more of damage to many foes.


So, I like the suggestion made earlier in the thread about Minion Damage Resistance. Light hits do not do enough damage. Medium to heavy hits kill minions.

It's a nice compromise between tracking hit points (on the one hand) and super easy kills (on the other). Thanks for that suggestion, I will be using it. I just need to find the sweet spot for it (although the 1/2 level + CON modifier suggestion looks like a good place to start).

 

[el-remmen]

That is why comparisons to other media are ultimately limiting and self-defeating.

See this, I completely agree with and say all the time. I don't play D&D to emulate books or movies - I play to play D&D, and sometimes that is influenced by books and movies.

So yeah, minions are another example of that comparing to me too

 

[Korgoth]

KarinsDad, I think what you're saying is reasonable. But consider the ranged attack issue: isn't it reasonable to attack your foes at range as they approach? I see this in shows all the time: the bad guys attack, so the good guy shoots them down. But one of them can't seem to be hit... he's too good. So they end up locked in a kung fu fight or something.

Same with Minions... the way I see it, you kind of expect everybody to be a Minion. If you shoot somebody in the chest with an arrow, you expect him to fall down with a punctured lung or pierced heart. You shoot down a bunch of orcs (or whatever) and then you fire a perfectly-placed shot at this one... and it somehow doesn't hit where you thought it would. He jinked to the side lightning-quick, or he slapped the arrow down with his buckler, or it bounced off his big snaggle tooth! The point is, you know that you've encountered a truly worthy foe. And thus the epic fight scene commences.

 

[KarinsDad]

KarinsDad, I think what you're saying is reasonable. But consider the ranged attack issue: isn't it reasonable to attack your foes at range as they approach? I see this in shows all the time: the bad guys attack, so the good guy shoots them down. But one of them can't seem to be hit... he's too good. So they end up locked in a kung fu fight or something.

Same with Minions... the way I see it, you kind of expect everybody to be a Minion. If you shoot somebody in the chest with an arrow, you expect him to fall down with a punctured lung or pierced heart. You shoot down a bunch of orcs (or whatever) and then you fire a perfectly-placed shot at this one... and it somehow doesn't hit where you thought it would. He jinked to the side lightning-quick, or he slapped the arrow down with his buckler, or it bounced off his big snaggle tooth! The point is, you know that you've encountered a truly worthy foe. And thus the epic fight scene commences.

The rationale you just presented sounds good on the surface. But, it has holes. For example, it gives metagaming information to the players that they should not have which in turn will result in metagaming tactical decision making. For one thing, each foe that was killed must NOT have been a worthy foe. For another, each foe that was hit and was not killed MUST have been a worthy foe (as you suggest).

However, there are no foes that get hit that are NOT especially worthy foes and if hit, still are able to fight in your example. There are also no foes that are worthy and get hit who are just plain unlucky that day. Worthy foes are always lucky on that first attack. Always (because they have more hit points than a single attack can do in damage).

I do not necessarily want to come up with a rule where the enemy leader dies accidently in round one. That's not my goal (but I could see it as a once in a blue moon goal of a different DM).

But, I do want a rule where the Minion does get hit and does get lucky (or is only slightly wounded). Yes, I know that if the die roll misses, it COULD be explained that way (using the mechanics to explain what happened, most players know that they either missed or didn't roll damage dice or whatever). But again, that is meta-gaming knowledge.

The players are going to continue to attack a given foe until they either know a) he is a minion because he died on a successful hit or b) he is not a minion because he did not die on a successful hit. And then suddenly, they will pull out the big gun Daily attack because they KNOW the foe is not a minion.

The Minion Damage Reduction rule someone else mentioned alleviates this issue to some extent. The players do not know if it is a Minion or a Leader, they just know they hit and did damage and it did not kill the opponent. No nearly automatic metagaming knowledge given on a successful attack roll.

And yes, criticals would give away meta-gaming information to some extent. For example, a critical on round one that does not kill an opponent would indicate that it is not a minion. However, since criticals are rare, the chance of doing so on a given opponent on the first successful attack is also rare, hence, although a loophole, it's rare enough that it shouldn't make a big difference. Players will still occassionally, pull out the big Encounter Only or Daily Only power on a minion. And, I'll probably think on the critical roll issue some more to find a way to handle it as well.

But with the 1 hit point rule as written, pulling out the Daily or Encounter power against a minion will almost never happen. That's pure metagaming.

 

[Henry]

No, they don't. In exactly one movie out of three, at the very end, for dramatic purposes, Leia was shot in the arm. Other than that, there was absolutely no danger of the stormtroopers landing a shot on the heroes. Because they were never a credible threat.

If they were never a credible threat, why did Han run from them in the famous "bluff charge" scene? Why were the heroes running from hordes of Stormtroopers invading Hoth? Why were they so utterly defeated on Endor when ambushed, saved only by the little furry plot-devices... err, Ewoks? If the stormtroopers weren't a credible threat, then the heroes themselves didn't know it! And in my opinion, neither should the PCs. But how to simulate that sense of trepidation?

Answer: the players need to feel like the dime-a-dozen minions could be a threat, which leads me back to my point. Minions are a way to involve a lot of foes, but still have them be both credible and possible to defeat. Throw a bunch of 3rd edition 1 HD orcs at the players of the 15th level PCs, and watch them yawn. Throw a bunch of level 15 minions at them, and watch them have fun mowing through enemies, but still take caution not to take them for granted.

I still am curious why it matters if the minions are "asymmetrical", other than for rules aesthetics. The only people those minions will be fighting will be the PCs. To me, it's like being upset that an emergency spare tire won't last as long on the road as a "real" tire. Both serve a purpose, but are used for different things - and there's no rule against buying a fifth hub for your car and throwing the crappy spare away.

 

[KarinsDad]

I still am curious why it matters if the minions are "asymmetrical", other than for rules aesthetics. The only people those minions will be fighting will be the PCs. To me, it's like being upset that an emergency spare tire won't last as long on the road as a "real" tire. Both serve a purpose, but are used for different things - and there's no rule against buying a fifth hub for your car and throwing the crappy spare away.

Read my posts on this page. It's about metagaming knowledge and PC tactics, not about the mechanics of running minions. I actually like the concept of minions who fall easy and can be thrown in large groups at PCs, I just don't like the fact that if an opponent does not fall right away, the players know he is not a minion (and other similar issues).

Another potential solution I see is to give minions saving throws. The DM would also have to roll for non-minions. Hmmm. Have to keep thinking about this one.