Parrying, modifying combat

[Thondor]

I began coming up with these rules in the thread DEFLECT MELEE ATTACK started by KiwiGlen.

I love the concept of having an opposed check to see if attacks succeed. And thus a concept was born. Give me your opinions and your thoughs on refining the system, I've yet to test it out in game.

Utilizing parry calls for a completely different system meaning
a) the creation of a parry system
b) Adjusting AC

Parry save
Parry save = 'good save' for all warrior classes (starts with +2 ends with +12) i.e. Fighter, monk, barbarian, paladin, ranger
all other classes parry save = poor save (starts with +0 ends with +6)
There are no stat modifiers to this save
Reason: why not BAB? we want hit's to still be common. If bab was used as the parry stat then two Equal warriors have only a 50% chance of ever connecting and this is without factoring in AC. True a first level warrior has a higher base parry then BAB but chances are he modifies his BAB with a stat, where he doesn't modify his parry, thus there is always more chance to hit then to parry.

Parry amount:
A character can parry as often as she has attacks with BAB. Two weapon fighting and flurry of blows do not affect this #. The +2 to attack for flanking is no longer gained, this mechanic takes care of that.
(suggested change: two-weapon defense now grants an extra parry)
Reason: If your being attack by two enemies of equal level you should be at a real disadvantage. You can't parry both properly.

The mechanic:
Roll the attack and parry at the same time. (this is great cause it makes it feel more like a duel) If the attack beats the parry - which should happen more often then not - then you check if the attack roll also beat the AC.
Reason: This makes only having one parry per your number of attacks important. If you only have to deal with the ones that would hit you, you can be surrounded and have no real dissadvantage. Furthermore if your fighting someone who has more attacks then you, while your parry bonus never changes his last attack (wich will be very low and unlikely to beat your AC has, bacause it cannot be parried, a much higher chance of succeeding)

The AC change:
I would suggest that the base AC be reduced from AC 10 to AC 5. The AC against ranged weapons would still be AC 10 (as you can't parry them)
Reason: this means that if both rolls were low and the attack won it will likely be canceled out. However if both rolls were high and the attack won then it is more likely to hit.
Logic: You're ability to parry is now active rather then passive

Shields and Arrow parrying:
A character with a shield can attempt to parry a missile albeit at a -4
reason:shields are no longer included in AC (except tower shields wich grant a +2) but should enable a character to affect projectiles.

now the above needs to be tested but I think it would hold together. Below are some suggested feats for this system.


Improved parry:
Requirement: apropriate melee weapon or shield
bonus: As indicated below
Weapon Parry Modifier
Light shield +3 (shields no longer grant AC bonus except Tower shields, Light and heavy grant their AC bonuses as parry bonuses without this feat)
Heavy shield +4 (i.e. granted +2 without this feat and an additional +2 with this feat)
Tower Shield +4 (without feat grants both a +2 to AC and to parry)
shortsword, sickle +1
maces, clubs, hammers +1
parrying dagger +2 ( -1 on all attacks with this weapon)
Longsword, rapier, scimitar +2
Staff +2
Polearms +2
Greatsword +1
Bastardsword +1

axes, flails, spiked chains, whips, picks, and scythe(?) gain no benefit from this feat.
This feat effects any weapon the character posses but only grants the bonus from the best bonus - shield and sword bonuses don't stack. If the character is using two-weapon defense his last parry granted by the feat uses the lowest bonus.

Trained Parry
Requirement: improve parry, bab +2, non-warrior class
Bonus: You now gain parry bonus as a warrior of your level, meaning at a rate of +1 every 2 levels

Greater Parry:
Requirement: improved parry, bab +6
Bonus: you receive an extra parry.
you can take this feat multiple times it effects stack.

combat expertise and fighting defensively should probably be adjusted in this system but I'm not sure how.

 

[Thondor]

Creature Sizes

I think creature sizes should affect parrying but not weapon sizes, the bonus in the feat Improved parry adjust things in a way that makes sense.
However I don't believe small creatures should suffer that horrific -4 instead a simple -1. creatures above medium size would gain a +4 for every size category difference.
Would that be too extreme?
Perhaps certain natural attacks such as bite should also gain this +4,, true this would make certain creatures more dangerous but it seems logical.

 

[radferth]

You might want to check out Conan rules. Armor absorbs damage, and each class has its AC (called defensive bonus or somesuch) go up with level. I don't remember the details, but it does a good job of balancing the classes in the game with the new defense bonus stat.

 

[Thondor]

Hmmmm yes I think Paladium does something similar with parrying and Amor absorbing damage. But I'd like the system to fit more into the D&D system.

 

[magic_gathering2001]

i ran a no magic "swashbuckling" campain with this idea

i made Good parry 3/4ths lvl
Fair 1/2
and poor 1/4

fightrs monks rangers and paladins had good
clerics druids and rogues fair
barbarians wizards sorcerers poor

armor grants damage resistance equal to 10xAC bonus%
armor does not apply AC bonuses to parries
armor provides a dexterity penalty equal to 8- the Max Dex bonus

AC is 1d20+parry+DEX+other applicable modifiers
parry only applies half AC when unarmed

 

[genshou]

This is the parrying method I developed for my Forgotten Realms campaign. See what you think of it.

All characters receive a “parry” bonus to Armor Class based on their experience at avoiding blows even when unarmored. A parry bonus is a special type of bonus that represents a character’s use of their melee weapon, combined with combat training, to deflect blows that would otherwise strike them. A parry bonus is not the same as the use of the Fight Defensively or Total Defense actions, nor the Expertise feat. Parry bonuses represent a character’s ability to defend above and beyond the bonuses provided by these options, and the bonus applies any time the character has not lost his/her Dexterity bonus to AC. The bonus is used to allow a 20th-level wizard with even a humble dagger to deflect blows much better than a peasant conscript would, without factoring the use of feats or armor. Unarmed characters (including monks fighting with unarmed strikes, characters using gauntlets or ward cestas, characters using only ranged weaponry, and characters with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat) receive only half the calculated parry bonus as a dodge bonus instead. You may also elect, at the beginning of your turn, to gain the unarmed bonus when wielding a melee weapon, in order to avoid your weapon being damaged as it is used to block an attacker. This choice lasts until the beginning of your next turn.
Parry bonus for a character is determined in the following manner: 2 + half the character’s Base Attack Bonus. Some classes may gain additional increases to their parry bonus, as listed a few paragraphs below.
If you are wielding more than one melee weapon and a missed attack roll indicates your weapon was struck, roll to see which weapon was struck, giving each weapon an equal chance to be damaged.

When a character using their parry bonus is attacked, first determine the result of the attack roll without the parry bonus. If the roll indicates a successful hit, but adding the parry bonus would indicate a miss, the attack is blocked by the defender's weapon. The attacker gains an immediate free attack against the defender's weapon using the Strike a Weapon rules, with no attack of opportunity (you may have struck the foe's weapon as they parried, but you may not have hit it in a way that would allow for damage). In this system, characters wielding weapons are much better at defending themselves (and it meshes well with d20 System rules), but at the same time, you risk having your weapon broken when you elect for the full defensive bonus.

The following ability applies to members of certain classes:

Improved Parry: While Barbarians, Clerics, Druids, Fighters, and Paladins frequently depend on medium or heavy armor for survival; Monks rely on an almost supernatural sense of danger; and Sorcerers and Wizards focus on getting the heck out of dodge whenever threatened; Bards, Rangers, and Rogues must engage in melee, and often without the protection of strong armor or metaphysical senses. Characters who have levels in at least one of these three classes (or certain prestige classes, ask me about any specific class) have a parrying bonus +1 higher than normal. This extra bonus is not halved for unarmed dodge as the normal bonus is. For unarmed characters, this means that the character’s Base Attack Bonus is halved and then the Improved Parry bonus is added on afterward. Thus, a 1st-level Bard would have a +3 parry bonus when armed (rather than the normal +2), and a +2 bonus when unarmed (rather than the normal +1 or the +1.5 if you incorrectly halve the Improved Parry bonus).
Precise Parry: When a character’s total levels in classes that grant Improved Parry reaches 11, the bonus provided by the ability increases to +3 instead of +1.

The following feat allows for expanded parrying ability:

Exceptional Parry [General]
You have mastered the use of a weapon to deflect another’s attack.
Prerequisites: Precise Parry or Duelist level 7+, Dodge, Mobility
Benefit: When you fight with a weapon, you may select one opponent at the beginning of your turn, as per the Dodge feat. You must also select a weapon you are wielding that round with which you are proficient. You gain a +3 parry bonus against all attacks from this opponent until your next turn. Additionally, once per round per +2 bonus to Dexterity (minimum once), you may make an opposed attack roll against an opponent’s melee weapon attack roll (including unarmed attacks but not touch attacks or grappling) that successfully hit your character. If you succeed, the attack instead strikes the weapon you chose to use with this ability. The attacker gains an immediate free attack to strike your weapon, at the same attack bonus as the attack which provoked this free attack. You do not gain an attack of opportunity against the opponent, but otherwise the normal rules for striking a weapon apply.
Special: The benefits of this feat only apply if a character is using a weapon to parry. A character who is unarmed (or who chooses to parry as if unarmed in order to avoid damage to their weapon) cannot use this feat, and if a character loses or otherwise quits using their chosen weapon before their next turn while using this feat, they immediately lose the benefits provided.
This feat may be selected as a Fighter bonus feat.

 

[Thondor]

Genshou allow me to make some comparisons:
For a warrior class your 2 + half the character’s Base Attack Bonus is exactly the same as my "good save" parry which warriors (including monks) get. when maxed +12 and +12
Whereas those with medium BAB in your method who get "poor save" in my system get +3 more then mine when maxed: yours get +9 mine get +6
And those with poor BAB in your method also get "poor save" in my system get +1 more. when maxed: yours +7 mine +6
hmmmmm I really don't see why a wizard/sorcerer should be worse at parrying a weapon then a cleric or rogue it be the one side of combat they'd pick up. The other side of basing it off BAB that I don't like is that a first level wizard is as good at parrying as a fighter.

Perhaps my system is to harsh though only half the parry bonus of a warrior for all non-warrior clases. Should I start all non-warriors with a +1 and have it go up alternating every 2 levels then every 3 levels? (the good is every 2 levels poor every 3) So the a 1st level rogue would have a +1 and a 20level rogue a +8?

Geenshou I'm very curious about how many parry's you allow in a round? And furthermore how much have you found your system to effect the amount Characters get hit? Do you modify for size or different kinds of attacks?

 

[Thondor]

magic_gathering2001 What about shields how do they factor into your system? (Obviously they can't stack with the armor or a fighter in full-plate with a heavy shield would have damage resistance 100%) In a magic game how would magic armor not hit the 100% mark? (if we gave armor a limited amount of damage it could take before becoming more and more useless and neading repair how would a magic armor work?) I assume a hit always does 1hp of damage? Do you round up or down when calculating damage vs. resistance? Do you go by 1.5 and up is 2 and below 1.5 is 1? I assume calculators get toted around with this system.
Do your parry bonuses all start at 0 for 1st level?
I'm not sure about your explanation for dex penalty, from my understanding someone in half-plate would have a -8 to their parry roll 1d20+parry+DEX+other(it really shouldn't be called AC any more it's an active thing)
I assume you just extrapolated from other classes the cleric, druid, wizard, sorc . . . seeing as it was a magicless game. (sounds like fun by the way)
You raise a very imporatant point the Barbarain should suffer the poor parry stat but only IMO when he is raging the rest of the time he should have the good. (I don't think there should be three levels of parry only two) This would replace his penalty to . . . well . . . whatever we end up deciding armor does.

Please anyone jump in on anything. Your feedback is very much apreciated Genshou and magic_gathering2001 and I'm looking forward to others.

 

[Ibram]

I've been using a class based defense progression ever since Conan d20 came out. Its taken me a while to refine the system (and I'm still tweaking it a bit).

as it stands now there are 3 defense value progressions

Poor: used by primary caster classes
Average: used by front line fighter types
Good: used by Rogues, Monks, and other "quick" classes

Dodge adds a flat +1 to defense

Armor provides DR, which can be very high for the higher end gear (which is also very expensive) but weapons do more damage (usualy 1 dice higher then in regular d20)

Shields add to defense, with +1 for small shields and +2 for large shields.

I used to have a feat that allowed for parrying, you could attempt to parry a number of attacks equal to your AoO for that turn. a natural 20 hit could not be parried, a natural 20 on parry always blocked regardless and a natural 1 on parry always failed. you could only parry attacks by creatures one size catagory larger one size larger then yourself or less (no parrying attacks by a huge dragon).

I've recently ditched that in favor of having it add a +4 bonus to defense that does not stack with dodge. This was done to simplify combat a bit, as well as allowing me to make the requirements for parry easier to meet, and to simplify a complex feat (as you can see by my above description).

 

[Thondor]

Does anybody reduce AC when adding a parry roll? Is what I presented above a workable system? I do appreciate other methods, it helps give me perspective and ideas but some specific critiquing would really help.
I think my AC reduction of -5 goes perhaps a little to far, but what sounds logical?