Pathfinder 2E At Gary Con

Paizo is at the Gary Con convention this week, and is demoing Pathfinder 2nd Edition there. Here's a couple of photos! No juicy tidbits yet, unfortunately, but hopefully some will emerge over the next couple of days.

In the first photo, Stephen Radney-MacFarland demos Pathfinder 2nd Edition in this awesome photo from Beth Damis on Twitter.

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Paizo's Jason Bulmahn took a photo of his copy of the Pathfinder 2nd Edition playtest rules.

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[billd91]

I guess that is kind of my point. Do they really NEED to release printed playtest books? No, they WANT to do so to ensure a little double-dipping for Pathfinder 2E adopters. I'm not begrudging them money, but it is clear as day that they are delaying the PDF release to build up anticipation to pre-order. A playtest no less.

Hey, printing playtest books worked well for them before. I picked one up - still have it. I preferred thumbing through that to reading a PDF. Even with the iPad making reading PDFs a lot easier than during the PF1 playtest, I still prefer the printed volume.

 

[Adso]

Hey, printing playtest books worked well for them before. I picked one up - still have it. I preferred thumbing through that to reading a PDF. Even with the iPad making reading PDFs a lot easier than during the PF1 playtest, I still prefer the printed volume.

Lots of people do. That's why we are doing it. But for many of you who don't want a printed book, I hope you download the PDFs and tell us what you think. We are looking forward to your feedback (and the long days of collating, responding to it, and developing the game due to it).

 

[Shasarak]

The thing is...by the time we get the playtest books, we’re not really testing the current game. We’re testing the PRIOR iteration. Because there’s no way ya’ll at Paizo are just going to sit and chill after finishing the Playtest book. You’re going to test and revise and fix in the meantime.
The problems we catch in the Playtest book will often be the solved problems. The known errors. The stuff that’s already been changed internally. Which are only going to be a distraction away from the less obvious problems.

That is exactly what was happening in the DnD next playtest, the public was always working on old versions.

 

[Jester David]

That is exactly what was happening in the DnD next playtest, the public was always working on old versions.

Not really.
There were other versions released between public packages that were tested internally, and some stuff was never updated in the public documents. But it's a misrepresentation to say they were "old". The public packages were focused on mechanics and implementations that they wanted to concept test and get feedback on. They were compiled from stuff that had already been seen by the private playtesters and was deemed interesting enough to upgrade to public testing.

But the 5e playtest was as much about concept testing and getting a feel for what people wanted from the game. I'm less certain that's the case here, because there's far less time to gauge reactions and people are only going to see the one playtest.

That was the case with the Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle, which reflected the playtest as it was around the time it was printed, and was out of date by the time GenCon 2013 rolled around.

 

[Jester David]

Hey, printing playtest books worked well for them before. I picked one up - still have it. I preferred thumbing through that to reading a PDF. Even with the iPad making reading PDFs a lot easier than during the PF1 playtest, I still prefer the printed volume.

A printed book as a GenCon exclusive is fun, and a neat collectable. As would a paizo.com exclusive or "print-on-demand" variant for people who want that sort of physical book. But getting it into stores like a regular product seems weird.

It's odd to expect store to buy and carry a product with a very limited shelf life, where they might have trouble selling copies after the playtest ends. It's not the kind of product one should expect retail stores to stock...
Ditto making decisions about the playtest based on marketing the playtest book like a traditional print product.

 

[Shasarak]

Not really.
There were other versions released between public packages that were tested internally, and some stuff was never updated in the public documents. But it's a misrepresentation to say they were "old". The public packages were focused on mechanics and implementations that they wanted to concept test and get feedback on. They were compiled from stuff that had already been seen by the private playtesters and was deemed interesting enough to upgrade to public testing.

I dont think it was a misrepresentation to point out that the public playtest was well behind the private playtest and therefore can be considered to be "old". It seems accurate.

 

[Jester David]

I dont think it was a misrepresentation to point out that the public playtest was well behind the private playtest and therefore can be considered to be "old". It seems accurate.

Did they give people stuff that had already been seen and tested?
Yes.

Did they give the public stuff they had likely already moved beyond and redesigned?
No.

The Pathfinder 2 playtest will be much later in its design. They might have a few variants in the book to see how people like some more radical changes, but the overall design should already be done and they should be fine tuning. (They do need to lock in the rules by January or February.) More actual play testing and less concept testing.
And by the time the playtesters see the book, the play will have been tested.

 

[Adso]

And by the time the playtesters see the book, the play will have been tested.

We've been internally playtesting various iterations of these rules for about two years. We are going to be continuing to playtest between now and the release (my lunch-time Temple of Elemental Evil game met today, where they are rebuilding their characters for the third time). That said, while this has taught us a lot about the game, it's not the scope or size of the playtest we want. That is why we are doing the open playtest. That is why we have a large, multi-chapter playtest adventure that that tests certain aspects of the game in this broader scope. We know that this level of playtesting finds things that smaller internal playtesting does not. That's one of the chief reasons why we are doing it.

Stephen Radney-MacFarland
Senior Game Designer
Paizo

 

[Jester David]

We've been internally playtesting various iterations of these rules for about two years. We are going to be continuing to playtest between now and the release (my lunch-time Temple of Elemental Evil game met today, where they are rebuilding their characters for the third time). That said, while this has taught us a lot about the game, it's not the scope or size of the playtest we want. That is why we are doing the open playtest. That is why we have a large, multi-chapter playtest adventure that that tests certain aspects of the game in this broader scope. We know that this level of playtesting finds things that smaller internal playtesting does not. That's one of the chief reasons why we are doing it.

Which is why I would have liked to see something closer to an eight month playtest rather than a four month playtest.

For most groups, four months is likely 4-16 sessions depending on monthly or weekly play. An average is likely 8 sessions, bi-weekly. Probably 7 as one inevitably gets missed. That's enough to see three levels or play. Maybe four.
Fully testing a full game of twenty levels with a dozen classes just isn't going to happen. It's going to result in a whole lot of low level play and increasingly less play at high levels. And the rare groups that do try and test high level play are unlikely to have a perfect grasp of their characters enough to spot the abuses and imbalances.


I'm not really asking for myself.
While getting the PDF early would be cool, I know my group would be unable to actually test. I play in two games: a Star Trek Adventures game, and a 5e game where I've committed to running Tomb of Annihilation and we won't be finished by the playtest window. Carrion Crown is burning a hole in my gaming shelf and that'd be fun to upgrade and test that AP, but the timing won't work. I even considered a third game, but I think my wife would divorce me.


But I'm sure there's a way other people (i.e. not me) could have been giving early access.
Maybe subscribers to the Pathfinder RPG line. The Adventure Path Charter Subscribers for sure. People who wouldn't be buying the book from stores anyway. Paizo has a history of getting PDFs to subscribers slightly early: this is just a couple months early rather than a couple weeks. Five-star PFS gamemasters would be another good group.

 

[Emerikol]

Not to rain on anyone's parade, in fact I think PF2 sounds interesting so far, but this exploration phase is probably the first thing a DM in any RPG does as part of running the game. I'm sure they are adding special things you can do during this phase and that is great. The idea though of operating in different modes, combat, exploration, downtime is not really new. That is pretty much how I ran 1e in the 80's. I used 1 minute combat rounds, 10 minute exploration turns, and downtime was flexible but I tended to make things cost days.