Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

[Thomas Shey]

The second one of those, speaking from experience, is well handled by the chase procedure in the GMG, I'm still getting used to improvising them, but they work pretty well and aren't especially cumbersome.

I think you've mentioned that before but I forgot about it; I should really give that a look at some point; I've skimmed the GMG but I haven't read most of it in any detail.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Knock it all you want, but the best gaming I've ever had is right out of the 3E/PF1 CR. Not saying its always roses, but once you get a feel for it you can have some real fun encounters. PF2 was all samey to me. I didn't really really enjoy it at most encounter levels. I'm curious how PWL opens it up?

We used to get a lot of fun in OD&D with no CR at all. That was because you could get used to eyeballing.

That doesn't mean 3e CR was worth a damn. It provided no useful predictive value about an encounter after the first few levels worth mentioning.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I personally I do not want much difference between a lvl 8 and a lvl 12. Some difference, but not an insurmountable difference IMO. We like slow, modest progress across levels. At least for PCs. Traditionally CR is different than level (I'm guessing that is why PF2 uses levels for everything) and there can and possibly should be more difference between a CR8 and a CR 12 monster.

Well, I was referring to opponent level there, but I'm not sure I don't even stand by it with character levels. Like I said there doesn't seem much point in having 20 of them if four of them isn't fairly pronounced.

 

[MaskedGuy]

I thought it was just a conversion? I ran the original Kingmaker for PF1, and it was not a sandbox campaign. Wilderness exploration was treated as an outdoor dungeon (more or less). That you can possibly do encounters in a different order isn’t sufficient to make a sandbox campaign.

Hmm, I guess you can see sandbox and hexcrawl exploration as different thing, but I did still feel like kingmaker was sandboxy. Unless sandbox aren't allowed to have plots at all?

 

[MaskedGuy]

We used to get a lot of fun in OD&D with no CR at all. That was because you could get used to eyeballing.

That doesn't mean 3e CR was worth a damn. It provided no useful predictive value about an encounter after the first few levels worth mentioning.

Yeaaaaah I never got anything out of Pathfinder 1e CR besides exp.

 

[dave2008]

Well, I was referring to opponent level there,...

I thought so. I know PF2 uses levels for monsters too, but is an equal level monster equivalent to one PC? I can't remember, it has been to long since I read the book.

... but I'm not sure I don't even stand by it with character levels. Like I said there doesn't seem much point in having 20 of them if four of them isn't fairly pronounced.

I guess we we just prefer something different. We level up very slowly (we don't use XP) and really don't need our characters to power up to enjoy our game. It took our 5e group 6 years to get to level 15 and we can go months without leveling up. For us it is much more about playing the game at the table than our characters get ever more powerful. It is the growth of their story that we are more interested in (not that you can't have both).

 

[MaskedGuy]

I thought so. I know PF2 uses levels for monsters too, but is an equal level monster equivalent to one PC? I can't remember, it has been to long since I read the book.

I guess we we just prefer something different. We level up very slowly (we don't use XP) and really don't need our characters to power up to enjoy our game. It took our 5e group 6 years to get to level 15 and we can go months without leveling up. For us it is much more about playing the game at the table than our characters get ever more powerful. It is the growth of their story that we are more interested in (not that you can't have both).

I think level 0 is more equivalent to level 1 pc than level 1 monster is. Its bit deceptive, but that is how math seems to stack up in my view. Equal level monster is "stronger" than pc in aspect they both specialize in, but they are much less versatile so they will usually lose as result. (though I do simplify it here)

As for latter, I prefer exp systems of "level about every three session", that seems to be golden number pacing wise in my experience. (its why in my only 5e campaign I count exp based on adjusted exp rather than the actual one you are supposed to give out, the actual exp system of 5e is horridly slow)

 

[dave2008]

As for latter, I prefer exp systems of "level about every three session", that seems to be golden number pacing wise in my experience. (its why in my only 5e campaign I count exp based on adjusted exp rather than the actual one you are supposed to give out, the actual exp system of 5e is horridly slow)

Wow, I think the XP system in 5e (particularly at low levels) is to fast! We prefer a much slower pace to our leveling. Of course, your sessions probably =/= our sessions.

EDIT: I will also add that leveling slows down for us even more as you get higher level. I think it took 12 +/- months to get to level 5 and then 18+/- months to get to level 10 and about 36 +/- months to get to level 15.

EDIT 2: I just wanted to add the in-game time it has taken even longer. I think it was 10yrs in-game to get to lvl 15. We could never do this with a traditional AP!

 

[kenada]

Hmm, I guess you can see sandbox and hexcrawl exploration as different thing, but I did still feel like kingmaker was sandboxy. Unless sandbox aren't allowed to have plots at all?

There needs to be space for the PCs to make choices with consequences. If events are prescribed to happen when certain milestones are met, and there’s no way of avoiding or changing the substance of those events, I would hesitate to call such an adventure a sandbox. In Kingmaker, that’s basically what happens in each adventure book. The PCs have influence over the details, but the broad strokes are fixed. The GM can make it feel like a sandbox, but for it to actually be one, the PCs would need to have actual agency. There’s e.g., no way to avert the war in the fifth book. You get introduced to Irovetti at the start, then Pitax attacks you.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think Kingmaker is a bad AP. It was actually my group’s favorite AP of the ones I ran (Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Rise of the Rune Lords, Shattered Star) and the only one we played to completion. We had a lot of fun building up their kingdom, and some of the events are still memes in my group. However, if I ran it like I’m running my current campaign (an exploration-driven sandbox), it would have broken down. Even that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing (since the PCs would presumably then have actual agency), but it’s not what the AP was written to do.

 

[payn]

There needs to be space for the PCs to make choices with consequences. If events are prescribed to happen when certain milestones are met, and there’s no way of avoiding or changing the substance of those events, I would hesitate to call such an adventure a sandbox. In Kingmaker, that’s basically what happens in adventure book. The PCs have influence over the details, but the broad strokes are fixed. The GM can make it feel like a sandbox, but for it to actually be one, the PCs would need to have actual agency. There’s e.g., no way to avert the war in the fifth book. You get introduced to Irovetti at the start, then Pitax attacks you.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think Kingmaker is a bad AP. It was actually my group’s favorite AP of the ones I ran (Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Rise of the Rune Lords, Shattered Star) and the only one we played to completion. We had a lot of fun building up their kingdom, and some of the events are still memes in my group. However, if I ran it like I’m running my current campaign (an exploration-driven sandbox), it would have broken down. Even that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing (since the PCs would presumably then have actual agency), but it’s not what the AP was written to do.

Yeap, all of this. I don't have an issue if folks want to call it a sandbox, but its not quite like sandboxes I'm used to. Many single day combats in hexes and scripted events that players dont have much effect on. Still a fine AP in my opinion.